Adam Weber

Office dog or no pets allowed? >> No pets allowed. >> No pets allowed. >> That took no qualifiers. >> No, really. No dog, no cat, nothing. You don't want any kind of office pet. >> People are going to hate this, but I'm not a huge animal person. >> Honestly, this is terrible. I shouldn't share this on on a podcast, but there's been this cat that has been sneaking into my yard. >> And you're just like, "Get out of here." >> Pooping in my yard every single night. I caught it the other night. I put out a trap and caught this cat. >> You caught the cat? >> Yeah. Did you use literally like a raccoon trap? >> Yeah. Put put some >> pest control guy over here using pest extermination techniques on a cat. >> I mean, I did let it go, but just to like show it like >> see like get out of here. >> Teach it a lesson. Maybe. And it hasn't come back. >> You got all the cat lovers out there, plug your ears. >> I know. I'm sorry. I apologize. Don't hate me in the comments. Rock next to Rock. >> Welcome back to the Startup Ignition podcast. This is the place where founders stories meet real tactics. We are here to help you on your full journey from idea all the way through exit. I am Tyler Richards. I am your host of the Startup Ignition podcast. And today we're going to have no dad jokes because my dad literally is not here. It is just me today. But I am joined by our guest today who I am very excited to talk to who is the CEO actually of one of our portfolio companies. So today we have Adam Weber here in the house and Adam welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you here. I think we've tried to get you here a few times and it hasn't worked out. So, I'm excited. We actually landed on a date and we got you here. It was just unfortunate that it's a day where my dad could not make the podcast recording. So, >> that's all right, man. Pickle. Pickle ball is more important. >> Yeah, pickle ball and whatever else he's doing. No. So, I have a bio for you, Adam, and I'm going to read it for everybody just so we can kick things off so everybody knows who Adam Weber is. >> I didn't write this for the >> No, you didn't. You know who did? You know who did? Uh, I did not go I did not go chat GBT this time. [laughter] I actually went with Claude. It was It was a Claude. I'm testing out Claude. I'm very familiar with Brock. I'm very familiar with Chad GBT. Very familiar with Gemini. I'm not super familiar with Claude. I feel like that's always the last one I'm like reaching to. So, >> yeah. I haven't played much in that one, honestly. >> No, you haven't? Yeah. Anthropic. So, here we go. Okay. So, let's see how Claude did. But Adam Weber is a co-founder and CEO of Driven, which is a Utah based SAS company transforming how home services and businesses operate. Uh it is like an analytical dashboard and metric um platform for the managers of these home services companies specifically in pest control. I know this because we are an investor in your company. Um Adam has spent over a decade building and in the industry of pest control. So you're super familiar with it. You started one and sold one yourself an actual pest control company where you were performing the services. Yeah. >> And during that time he identified a huge problem, a huge need, which is what driven your software platform is today, which is helping operate and manage the employees and the services being performed, analyzing them, and metricing them basically. Um, are you doing more than pest control today or are you still hyperfocused on pest control? >> Yeah, hyperfocused on pest control for now. I mean, ultimately, we'll get into this, but home services is the path >> is kind of like the the main the larger >> Yeah, but we're pest control people at its core now. So, >> and I know that Driven has just recently, the Driven is the name of your your startup. Um, Driven recently just raised a $2.5 million seed round, which congratulations on that. That's an accomplishment. They have raised since our initial check into the company cuz Startup Ignition Ventures is a preede venture capital firm where we write the very first checks under a million dollar checks into companies. But Adam has gone on to now raise 2.5 from another firm and we participated in the round as well. But Adam is a true operator. He is I I know Adam as just an all-around good dude. More recently, apparently a very good golfer [laughter] because I got a text the other day. Hey, I'm at this golf tournament with one of the CEOs in your portfolio and he just made a hole-in-one. So apparently Adam's just all around arrow in his quiver for every single thing in life. >> Well, I mean, we should caveat that real quick. You've golfed with me as well, so that was a fluke thing. Total luck, but beautiful. Such a cool. >> I mean, that that you have to be aiming in the general direction for that. True. It didn't bounce off a rock and go in or something. >> Yeah, it was still a good shot, I'm sure. But yes, all around good dude. I know Adam's wife. We've gotten very close since our investment into his company. Good, gritty, hardworking entrepreneur and obviously executing in the SAS arena. So, welcome, Adam, to the podcast. I'm excited to have you and honestly to to have you all to myself today. So, this is going to be fun. >> But before we get into it, Adam asked me right before we started recording for the podcast. [laughter] He's like, "Are we going to do one of those ice breakers?" I'm like, "You know, we're going to do an icebreaker." >> Absolutely. Let's hit it. >> So, I have I have an icebreaker for you, Adam. And I I am going to do a startup this or that. So, Adam was like, "Are we going to do a this or that?" I'm like, "Yeah, we're going to do a this or that." >> But this is a startup this or that. >> Yeah, it's startup this or that. All right. >> Well, I mean, it's kind of a it's a startup focused one. So, what do you prefer out of these two situations? Okay, so no explanations. I'm just going to give you two options and you tell me which one you prefer. Okay, here we go real quick. >> Slack message or face tof face combo. >> Oh, this is tough. >> Does it depend? >> Uh, it depends on the person for sure. I'm thinking of specific people on my team and they'll watch this. I'm sure >> some of them Slack, some of them face to face. >> Yeah, but honestly, I mean, I would probably go towards face to face or at least a Slack huddle, right? as opposed to like a Slack message like the video thing. >> Yeah. So instead of sending a message, you click huddle and it pulls off. Yeah. It's kind of like a FaceTime. A group FaceTime. >> Yeah. It just allows me to be clear in my communication and there's so much nuance in in text and everything >> like facial expressions or the way like yes versus yes is way different, right? >> And especially like depending on I mean I'm giving you so many qualifiers but depending on the on the type of conversation, right? If it's real, if it's deep, if it needs >> it needs face to face something then for sure. >> Okay. Bootstrap or funded? >> Yeah. I mean, three years ago, I would have said bootstrapped. Yeah. Right. Because that's all of the businesses that I'd ever been involved with with were all bootstrapped. >> Oh, yeah. So, this is your first kind of venture >> capital. >> Yeah. I mean, we raised like half a million of from an angel fund, Park City Angels in my first business. But even that was pretty bootstrapped and they like trunched it like crazy >> and so >> with milestones and Yeah. But but honestly, I've had more fun in this business than any other. So So there's a lot of added stress that comes with ventureback. >> So you're saying prefer bootstrap, but also when necessary funded. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. >> Yeah. And and it's just funny cuz everybody has a really strong opinion on that, right? Like you look on LinkedIn and it's like never take money or like always take money. The startup ignition approach is like a very blended thing where like even what you just said is oh in my first one I raised a half a million dollars but even that was bootstrapped like that's kind of the model startup ignition does is like raise a first check that gets you to profitability hopefully and then that mitigates a lot of dilution and doesn't sell a whole piece of the pie to get to what you knew but if that's not possible most scalable ventures need VCs so >> yeah yeah especially the business that I'm in now, right? Like having access to resources has changed our trajectory. >> So, and we have a whole podcast on elephants versus unicorns and the difference between pushing profitability up as early as possible versus pushing it down the road and raising money instead of getting to profits. So, >> I have tons of thoughts on that. So, we could probably talk about that. Okay, here we go. Office dog or no pets allowed? >> No pets allowed. >> No pets allowed. >> That took no qualifiers. >> No, really. No dog, no cat, nothing. You don't want any kind of office pet. >> People are going to hate this, but I'm not a huge animal person. >> Honestly, this is terrible. I shouldn't share this on on a podcast, but there's been this cat that has been sneaking into my yard >> and you're just like, "Get out of here." >> Pooping in my yard every single night. I caught it the other night. I put out a trap and caught this cat. >> You caught the cat? >> Yeah. What did you use? >> Literally. It was like a raccoon trap. Yeah. Put Put some >> pest control guy over here using pest extermination techniques on a cat. Yeah, I mean I did let it go, but just to like show it like >> see like get out of here. >> Teach it a lesson maybe. And it hasn't come back. >> Yeah. All the cat lovers out there, plug your ears. >> I know. Sorry. I apologize in advance. Don't hate me in the comments. >> Uh okay. So, no pets. Uh pivot early like at the first sign of needing to pivot or or die trying to get there. [gasps] >> I mean, does it have to be one of those two? Well, like [laughter] so if if there's like a hint of data or like a hint of feedback that's like maybe that's not the best route, are you like throwing up your hands and saying, "Okay, let's pivot away from it." Or you saying, "Hey, let's keep trying. Let's keep going. Let's push through." What are you? >> So, I mean, we fit really well, I think, with lean and that's why we connected really early on in this like customer validation, right? And so, I have this literally it's a note in my phone. And I can pull it up and show you right now where when I get feedback from a client, I mark it and then if I get it again, I put an X next to it and I get it again, I put an X next to >> So it's kind of like three strikes. >> And minus five. Oh, you're so So when I get to five, then I re-evaluate whether we need to look at this feature or make make a modification. And so it's so archaic, but it it's kind of my like >> I like that. I like that a lot. That's a great tip. >> Yeah. >> Um Okay. So you're kind of like keep trying until trying is literally a brick wall in your face. >> Okay. If I were to wave a magic wand, are you taking 10 more features in your app or 10 more customer sales? >> Oh, sales. >> Sales. >> Hands down. >> Sales. Revenue is the life of king. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. I like that. >> Um cuz I mean your product's probably sellable. Maybe an earlier entrepreneur would take 10 more features because then that would unlock more than 10 sales. I don't know. >> Yeah. And my CTO probably hates that I would take the sales, right? because I and I did it like and that's a story for maybe later in the conversation but but we took sales way early and honestly in hindsight it was too early >> but we onboarded like we tried to onboard so many clients when we had no product and and it ended >> I remember the reason why we liked what you were doing so much was because of the connections and traction you had early on in sales. It was like you could like flip a switch and you'd basically have 10 customers. And that was really attractive because you had basically prevetted all these guys that were basically clamoring to get on the product. >> It was just a matter of building it out, right? Which is a good problem to have. >> Yeah. >> Um cuz a lot of entrepreneurs have the inverse, which is they build this product and crickets chirp and they have no sales. That's death. That's a nail in the coffin. >> Yeah. And that was never going to be us. Like I would never It's just not part of who I am. Like I would never just build something because I think it's valuable. And we'll get into this, but I've been in so many different industries, like I don't care about >> I mean, I hesitate to say this. I don't care about the product all that much. Yeah. >> I care about the process and the resources and the opportunity that can come from that >> and the market. Yeah. >> Okay. Utah soda shops or energy drinks. See, you're sipping red. >> I literally have a Red Bull in front of me. Uh so, absolutely. Energy. >> Energy drinks. You're not doing the whole uh Utah mom thing with the Utah shops. >> And I'm like a diehard Red Buller. >> Oh, Red Bull. I'm kind I actually really like the Rockstar lemonades. Have you had those? >> No, I haven't. No, >> they're um the orange or yellow and now I think they have a few other flavors, but they're not carbonated. >> Oh, okay. >> They're really good. That's interesting. They're great. >> People always try to push all the other ones on me and I'm like I grew up like when I would go snowboarding. It was like a OG Red Bull. >> Well, that was the only thing that was there. That was the only thing you grabbed for in high school or even in like uh you know, college. It was like Red Bull was the only one that existed and then like Monster and a ton of other ones come on the scene and now it's like a huge part of startup culture. So, for sure. >> Okay, >> this one's kind of kind of off the wall. Are you ready? >> I'm ready. >> What do you hate worse? >> Oh, jeez. >> Bugs and code or bugs in addicts and in real life cuz we're from [laughter] the best control. >> Absolutely. Bugs and code. Bugs and code. Bugs and code. >> You You don't mind a a bug in? >> No. No. Cuz that's a good thing for us. That means that keeping our clients in business. >> We want more bugs. I didn't think about that one. [laughter] That's a good answer. Okay. What title do you prefer, founder or CEO? Like when you introduce yourself and you tell people what are you telling is CEO more powerful or do you do you like the founder title? >> Well, so that's two different questions, right? Which which one do I like more? Founder. But which one has carries more weight in conversations? CEO for sure. But honestly, like I don't even really see myself as >> a let's say um let's say a cousin asks what you're doing. Are you saying, "Oh, I'm a founder of a company or I'm a CEO of a company." >> Yeah, I own a I own a company. >> Founder. Okay. >> Yeah, I founded a company. >> Okay. Yeah. Because then if you're doing a deal, shaking hands in partnership, CEO, I'm the decision maker. >> Yeah. I'm at a show, a convention or something and it's like, hey, like, let me introduce you to the CEO. Like they don't say, let me introduce you to the founder quite as often. >> Okay, last one here. They're like, wow, they're taking 15 minutes on the this or that. But I think this has been great. This is get to know Adam really well. Okay, last one. Late nights or early mornings? >> I wish wish that I wasn't a morning person. You're not? >> No. And I still I still get up relatively early. Um, but I'm a night person for sure. >> So, I' I've always told people this, like if I'm waking up in the 5:00 a.m. hour, like that really sucks. If I'm waking up in the 6 a.m. hour, that's way more tolerable. If I'm waking up in in the 7 a.m. hour, I'm like, that is ideal. 8 a.m. I feel like that's too late. >> Yeah, I'm I'm 100% the same way. Like 7:15, 7:20, that's like best case. >> That being said, I'm very often waking up to work out in the 5 a.m. hour. Yeah, that's mainly because my wife is an insane worker outer and gym enthusiast and she's pulling me out of bed really early because that's when she likes to go to the gym because she likes to be home for, you know, elementary school hour to get our kids all ready and everything. So, if I'm doing anything with her, >> I Yeah. 5:00 a.m. But I I don't like the early mornings, but I do the early mornings. But I also stay up late, too. So, I don't know. >> You stay up late. I do. Yeah. I like I can't actually go to bed before 11. >> Like I just can't make myself fall asleep. >> I don't go to bed before 11. I'm I'm usually falling asleep between 11 and 12:00. If I'm going to bed beyond midnight, that's too late. If I'm going to bed before feel like that's too early. >> Yeah, totally. >> Yeah. But I do like all my friends and family give me a hard time because the gym for me is usually like 10:30 because I'll get up and I'll work in the morning and then I'll go take like my lunch and go to the gym and then come back and never eat lunch cuz I >> even when I was operating my startups and all my businesses that I've done in the past. It's like I would always just get up early, get the gym done and then get my work in because like once I started or I was my business was very office orientated where it was physical school, physical location. So like I was present every day. Like I could not go in and then go out. You know what I mean? >> So it was tough. All right. That was great. Okay. >> That wasn't too hard. >> That was great. >> We could do an icebreaker. Yeah, that was great. All right, that's fine. Let's let's dive into Adam's past and, you know, maybe take us to where you are today, but going back. So >> I know that prior to running Driven, which is this SAS software company, you were in the services business running a pest control company. Was there anything before that? Like take me to college. Where did you go to university? >> Yeah. So I didn't I mean I did. I technically was enrolled at Utah Valley University. >> Yeah. But I dropped out after like two semesters and even then I was going to meet girls and not to not to actually study. So >> you So you went for like the social aspect, not so much like the book. >> Yeah. You know. >> Yeah. But so and and so we'll we'll jump into this, but this kind of connects to my startup journey and where I started. So in school, right, in high school and middle school and elementary, I honestly thought, and this is a big soap box, right, for my like for education and everything else, but I thought I was dumb for most of my education. In hindsight, I realized it's because I learned differently. Like I learned things in a different way than the tradition. >> Back in elementary school, you felt dumb. >> Yeah. Because you know, and I don't know if you got these. We got O's, S's, and N's. >> Outstanding, satisfactory, and needs improvement. That was our like grading in school in elementary. >> No. >> Yeah. So, so that's what we got. And I was always S's or like one N, >> which then in middle school and high school converted into like >> it was O was outstanding. S was what? >> Satisfactory. >> Satisfactory. So, you're just doing >> N was needs improvement. Okay. >> Yeah. So, I was always S's and sometimes some N's. >> Wow. >> Right. And then in middle school in high school, it was always B minuses and C++'s. Total honesty with myself. A lot of that was because I just didn't try because I didn't I didn't buy in to the [clears throat] to the concept of how they were teaching. >> But also, I just couldn't learn that way. Like with somebody like feeding information to me, it just wasn't how I ingested it and I couldn't take it. >> Um, and so I thought that I was just dumb. And I and I figured because the system was built around this that of course like I just must be an anomaly and I'm destined to not do great things. >> Did you feel that way all the way through high school and >> pretty much >> and and you what you weren't very motivated to go to to college like the next >> No, I thought I was supposed to, right? Like I figured I was supposed to go to college cuz that's what everybody said and I knew I could get into UVU because at the time it was you UCC. What was that? No. >> Uh UVSC. That's what it was. Um and everybody could get in. I think everybody still can get in to that college. That's the one here in Utah. Um, but I knew I was supposed to go there and and that was like the path that everyone was supposed to take. You're supposed to go to school after high school, supposed to go to college, do >> but my senior year of high school, um, this is not a political reference at all. Um, because at the time there was no political affiliation, but I took this marketing class and the entire class was watching The Apprentice. Like literally the entire class we would go in the teacher would turn off the lights and turn on episodes of the apprentice >> for for what reason? >> I almost called. It was marketing. >> It was a marketing class. >> It was a marketing class which in like there are some pieces right if you watch old apprentice episodes like there's some like marketing aspects maybe but it was I'm sure it was just lazy teacher. Um that is genuinely when I decided and when I realized that I could maybe be an entrepreneur >> was watching these people go and try new things. >> What what flipped that switch for you? What was it about the apprentice that motivated me? >> I would look at these people and this is maybe extreme hubris, right? And and it and I think that kind of conf. >> Yeah. And I would watch them and I would watch the mistakes they made and I was like oh I that's stupid. I wouldn't do that. And I would look and then they would go into the boardroom with Trump and he would be like, "You're an idiot." I'm like, "I called it. I knew that guy was stupid. I knew that decision was a bad decision." Validation. >> Yeah. And so that was like kind of my flicker moment was like, "I just get this. nobody's taught me this, but I just get a little bit of it. Like I get the why. And so, so that was kind of my spark in going to it. And so then like fast forward a couple years, right? And I'm and I'm in college. I always say like when I'm talking to my kids, like I accidentally say like when I was in college, like I wasn't actually in college. I was enrolled in college and during my college years. >> Yeah. But I had a good friend come to me and and he was like, "Hey, I have this this idea for I I was just in Thailand uh on a backpacking trip and I bought a custom suit for $100." And he's like, "What if we did that in the States?" And I'm like, "Why not?" >> Yeah, >> let's do that. And I had been in Europe a little bit and traveled and loved >> was why was this friend was really close to you or >> like relatively >> like why was he collaborating and like throwing ideas off of you and talking with you. >> And that's a good question. I honestly I can't remember exactly how it happened. Yeah. It was just like, hey, I had this thing and I was like, we should do that. Let's do it together. >> Okay. Did you do that? >> And so we started it. Yeah. It was a company called Dress Code. It was based here in Utah and we did custom suits and dress shirts for men. >> Wow. >> And it was like we would go to their house and measure you. You would pick out the fabric and the style and we would send it out to Thailand. And that's another crazy story. We decided we were going to do this and we're like, let's just go and figure it out. So, we convinced 50 of our friends and family to give us $100 each. >> And we bought oneway tickets to Thailand. And so, we flew to Thailand and we're like, "We can't come home until we have 50 suits for $100 for all of these people." >> And so, we just went around Bangkok. >> So, wait, you went into family and friends and said, "Hey, give me a hundred bucks. I'll get you a custom suit. >> I'll bring you a custom suit back." Yeah. And we literally we watched YouTube and like figured out how to measure and like like all of this stuff. And we're like, "We'll just come back with a cool suit. like you just have to trust us, but we'll come back with a cool one because they couldn't pick fabric. We didn't have any of that stuff or style. And so we just vaguely measured them and flew over to Thailand. And I think we were there for maybe like 3 weeks and came home with a relationship with a manufacturer, somebody who was going to make these suits for us. We literally I think we made those suits for like $98 each. So we didn't make anything, right? But we stuffed our suitcases full of them and came back and delivered them and they were garbage. Like none of them fit. But it was like our our initial jump into this space. >> Were your family members and those who asked for the suit like, "Uh, what was this?" >> I mean, probably. Yeah, I'm sure they did. It was a long time to your face. That's funny. >> Yeah. But yeah, so we started a custom clothing company. It was >> an awesome learning experience, but it was a terrible company. At the height of it, I think we were making like $20,000 a month selling suits. Yeah. And that felt good, but we were >> selling them for $160 or something. We weren't even doubling the price of >> No. And and and making like 95 and then we weren't even counting like tariffs, which we had no clue what that was and how that worked. And so the business just was terrible. Like the actual business structure was bad. >> So we ended up raising money though from Park City Angels. Long story short, I ended up leaving the company and I ended up getting bought out for like $20,000. Like that was my buyout of my equity. >> Yeah. >> And >> what was the story there? Why why were you bought out? >> Yeah, it was I mean the the short version of it was there was just partner relationships. The co-founder that I started with, it just wasn't a good fit for either of us and we were young and stupid and just had no concept of what what that really should look like. >> But he wanted to take it and keep going and you wanted to say, "Okay, I'm just throwing up my hands here. I'm kind of done with this." >> Yeah. Yeah. It just wasn't a good fit. >> How did that end up for him? >> Honestly, I don't actually really know. Um it just ended up not existing at some point in the next like two years. So, I don't really know like he and I haven't talked a ton 5050 on that business. That's the problem there. >> Yeah, it is. Yeah. And that's actually a conversation I saw John's post a little while ago on LinkedIn responding to somebody and you like and we've learned from that. Yeah. Yeah. Those are absolutely >> 50/50 or third third or quarter quarter quarter quarter are always bad. There just needs to be someone who has the final say on things. >> Totally. Totally. And especially when you're 21. >> Yeah. >> Right. Like now I'm I'm not old, but I'm 36 now. Now I have a little bit more maturity and concept around how to make decisions at the time 21 and making $20,000 even though we're making like $1,000 maybe. >> Um like you think that you know everything and you think you have all these answers but >> Yeah. Okay. So you moved on and did you what did you move on to? Did you have something lined up or were you kind of you were just like I'm done here. I'm out. Yeah. >> Where did you go? >> Yeah. So I actually moved to downtown San Francisco um to be in the startup world. I got a job at Wells Fargo in their corporate payroll division. Like I had no experience. I like bluffed my way into a awesome job which I hated but awesome paying job in literally downtown San Francisco at their headquarters so that I could live there and have an opportunity to be around Silicon Valley. Yeah. And and that that whole thing. >> So So okay, pausing on this whole story before we go further down the timeline. Yeah. You have basically identified that startups is your thing. Like you want to be an entrepreneur. You gave it a run with this suit company. You said that didn't work out. The mecca of startups is in Silicon Valley. I need to be in San Francisco. So you've decided I'm going to do a startup, be an entrepreneur some way, shape or form without really any true plan. >> Yeah. >> Tell tell me about this job though. >> This is no knock to you, right? But at the time you have a failed suit business startup. >> Yeah. >> That you had co-founder problems with and you left basically with nothing. >> Yeah. >> Two, you have no degree >> and you have no financial background. >> You had just told me that you felt like an idiot in elementary school and high school. Um, >> absolutely. >> Which I'm honestly shocked about all this because I have a very high opinion of you, Adam. Like you're a very smart dude. You're very with it. You're very witty. You're very smart. How do you get this Wells Fargo job? And what did you tell them? Yeah. In the interview to say, "Yeah, take a chance on me." Because I feel like there's a lot of filters in the normal 9 toive job where you're trying to compete against a lot of these other degreed folks and other people who are probably dying to have that kind of a job. >> Yeah. >> What happened? >> Yeah. So, I mean, to answer that question, you got to step back a bit. So when I started Dresscode, the suit company, >> that's when I realized that I was smarter than I thought I was. That's when I realized that I could learn in a different way. Yes, it was a failed business, but I learned at an incredible pace, right? Like we were figuring things out. We were solving problems. We were figuring out logistics of international shipping and distribution and sales and all of these things. And we ran that business for two and a half years. So it was it wasn't like a crazy short time. Um, and it was enough for me to learn. and to develop what I now call my irrational confidence, right? Like and and that's something that that has carried on into today. But that answers the question that you just had, right? So then I went to this point and I'm like, hey, >> now I know I can do anything. I can't, but I I think that I can do anything. >> And so I go into these interviews just knowing I'm the better candidate. >> Yeah. >> Regardless of my background, because I'll figure things out in a way that's better than the next. >> What did you call irrational what? >> Confidence. and rational confidence which is like uninformed optimism. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's another great way. Have you heard about the five stages of like behavioral change? And it's very common to think of like entrepreneurs when whenever we're starting anything, >> we're very uninformed optimists, right? Where we are >> trying to or think that we can do anything, right? But then we start learning about the market or we start learning about the industry or we start learning about, you know, the customer and we start becoming an informed pessimist, right? because we say, "Oh, this is way harder than I thought it was going to be." And so there's kind of these these valleys and peaks of like information and, you know, self-confidence and behaviors that >> every entrepreneur go because it's just so funny that you call it what did you call it one more time? >> Irrational confidence. >> Irrational confidence. >> And and I think to that point like yes, there's a time for that, right? That that pessimism. But even I I mean I've had failed opportunities and we'll jump into those I'm sure but other other businesses that have failed and even in those moments and yeah they suck and like like tear like like my life is in in the tumble but but at the same time >> I know that I'll figure out a solution like I will figure out the next step. If it's if I have to go back and find another job I'll go do it like but I know there is something that will come after that. And so even in those terrible times, something about me in my wiring just tells me that I'll figure it out there. >> Another insight to that is is I feel like we're very similar in that approach in that like we're cup half full type of people. >> Yeah. >> A lot of people will look at a situation and only see the failure. What they say is that people who have high anxiety or have high pessimism look at a task that needs to be done and they look at the work that has to be done within that task. Versus optimists or positive people usually are looking at the reward at the end of the work. So they don't even pay attention to the work. They only look at the reward that they're going to get from the work. where most people who are down in that that mentality they look they look at the hard work like oh man to to be an entrepreneur and get the success and everything it's like I have to do x y and z versus like the entrepreneur who's like an optimist is like dude if I just do this like I could have infinite wealth or this exit or this opportunity right so that's the that's like the mind shift it's like the same thing but just looking at the task at hand a little bit differently >> totally I tell my team that all the time now and when I whenever I'm interviewing somebody to come in. >> I'm like I'm like you crap rolls downhill, right? Like I get that it all comes to me and that's okay. >> But when you come to me with a problem, I need you to come to me and say, "Hey, this is the problem. These are my proposed solutions or these are the things I've tried to do. What do you think? How can we get through this?" Not just like, "Here's the problem. >> Help me." >> Like that's not what I want. I want that positivity. I want that support and and then we'll figure it out. >> Okay. Not to beat a dead horse here. But you still haven't told me the actual how you got that Wells Fargo job, but that's another time for another story cuz I don't want [laughter] to spend the whole podcast on that. I'm just flabbergasted at that though. Okay, so you get this job in San Francisco. Do you kind of plug into that ecosystem? Totally. How was that? >> Yeah, it was incredible. And I met somebody there. His name is McKay. He's an incredible founder. He started baby.com.br. It was like a Brazilian like baby supply company. Um he started a bunch of startups since and incredibly successful and a really good >> plug in. What was your plan of attack? Okay, you're going to San Francisco. You're in the heart of Silicon Valley. You have no no one, no nothing, have nothing going on. What did you do? >> Yeah, it was Meetups. Like Meetups was like new, relatively new I feel like at the time, but and I don't even know if it exists anymore. >> Meetup.com. Do people still use that? Okay. I haven't used it in a minute, but but yeah. So in San Francisco, I'm like I'm just going to go to everything. And so I started going to all these meetups, started getting connected. >> Anything that was free, you're going to. Oh yeah. Yep. Yeah. And so started getting connected, started working on a startup there. Um it was actually called Yeah. Anyways, it was it was a concept around like a a localized marketplace in big cities. You have to leave your apartment complex, walk three blocks, go to the corner store to be able to get a gallon of milk, right? A pint of milk if you need it or ice cream or toilet paper or diapers or whatever that is. So it's called knock and it was this concept of like we would self supply all of these things within each apartment complex. So it's almost like Uber concept so people could have all these items in their apartment list it for their complex and say hey if you need this I went to Costco >> and I picked up some extra toilet paper anyone can buy it from me. They come down to their neighbor's house knock on the knock on the door and buy it from them. It all happens within this marketplace. Super. And it only works in a in a big city environment, right? like it doesn't work outside of that. Anyways, it it never ended up happening. So, it's not even worth talking about. But, I started working on this, started building this. I validated, I tested, I literally filled my apartment >> with all of this stuff. And then I would just go knock on people's doors in my apartment complex. Do you want this? >> Yeah. And just be like, "Hey, do you need this?" I I left flyers like, "Hey, text me if you ever need something and you don't want to leave." And so, people were like texting me. There was like Venmo transactions and people were like sending me money for a bottle of Coke or whatever it was. >> Are you Are you single at this time? No, married. >> You were married at this time? >> Yeah. Living in downtown. >> Oh, wow. >> And incredible. San Francisco was awesome, right? Like beautiful place. A little different now. San Francisco's changed a little bit. Still an incredible place. Um, and really cool vibe. And I loved that like feeling of >> just like startup energy was there. And now there's some of that here in like the Silicon Slopes concept and some other places. But to jump the story a little bit, I got a call one day from an old friend that I went to high school with. And he called me up. I'm in the my apartment 37th floor in San Francisco living this like startup life like cool energy and he's his name's James and he's like hey I've been selling pest control for the last 2 years making like4 million dollars a year working 3 months but I think there's something more to this pest control space I want to start a company I know how to sell you know how to run a business cuz he'd known and we' kept in contact with some of the things that I was working on and he's like would consider starting a company with me. >> And I get off the phone and it's just like, yeah, let's do this. So, I stop what I'm doing. I leave San Francisco, like downtown San Francisco to move to El Paso, Texas. >> How long How long were you in San Francisco for? >> Uh, just over a year. >> Really? A lot of that was for not a lot, right? like you kind of took that >> year in San Francisco to get to a startup, you know, be a co-founder, do your own thing, get plugged into the ecosystem, which I I feel like you did a good job of, but at the same time, it's like there really wasn't an in any end result from all of that, right? >> This guy that called you was a friend from high school. >> Yeah. No connection to San Francisco. Yeah. And he was in Texas at the time. >> And and I honestly don't look at life really that way. Like just in general, I've lived like my wife and I lived in seven states in the last 13 years and like 10 homes and it's just been like, hey, whatever the right opportunity and the thing that feels the best. I'm this advocate of trusting my gut and it's [clears throat] generally served me pretty well. Just take opportunities um and go with them. So >> So yeah, two weeks later, moved to El Paso. Like like I literally don't tell people that I lived in Texas if I know they're from Texas. I say I lived in El Paso because most people from Texas don't don't claim El Paso because it's like far far west Texas out in the corner. Start a pest control company there to together. We're not a door to door operation. Um and so I know in Utah that's a that's a big thing but and he was selling door to door but he wanted to do it differently. We wanted to build this like customer base. >> What was the plan of attack? What was like the the go to market strategy? How did you guys start getting business? >> Yeah. What people don't realize is like 95% of the pest control space is not door too. Yeah. Um, it's [clears throat] really like mom and pop traditional companies. And so we we did flyers, we did billboards, we did like we did knock some doors, but not in like a doortodoor sales approach, right? Like we were just >> making contact. >> Yeah. Making contact, which any any business could do. I do the same thing. I do it through Expos and other things now for for SAS, but you just want to get in front of people. >> Yeah. >> Um, and so we did that. And >> but you were just calling people or or emailing people or >> Yeah. All kinds of stuff. Facebook messaging. We would post in like the Facebook groups for each neighborhood within our community like, "Hey, this is what we're doing." We tried to be in front of grocery stores, handing out flyers, just all kinds of things. >> How did it go? >> I mean, it was great. We ran that business for 10 years, grew it multi-million dollar business, across multiple branches across Texas. We were in San Antonio, Austin, Dallas, El Paso by the time we exited. And it was an awesome business. Um, I always tell people, we're still in the pest control space now, but pest control is the sexiest, unsexy business that there is. >> We've actually had a ton of people plugged into the pest control industry on this podcast. Like, the pest control industry is a lot bigger than people realize. Oh, yeah. >> Because pests just don't go away. Like, there's always pest and there's a huge need for that industry. So, it's just it just keeps growing. >> Yeah. We ran that business through co and I always like say this with a little caveat like like I know that it was an incredibly painful time for a lot of people. It was the best years of our business. We grew at a massive rate for exactly the reason that you just talked about. It's a necessity regardless and people were home more often during that time and so they saw the bugs more frequently. >> So did you guys see you did >> huge huge increase. Yeah. And most pest control businesses did. So it was a really booming time. But go back to the beginning of when you and James, who by the way for the viewers and listeners, is his now co-founder as well. >> James was the one that gave you the call, the high school friend that said, "Hey, let's go do this pest control thing in El El Paso." >> Take yourself back. What was the main driver of success for that pest control company? I know it's not SAS. I know it's not tech and it's not Yeah. the sexiest business of them all. Business is business. Startups are startups. What was the main contributor and attribute of that time that gave you basically the ultimate end goal of selling the company which I know you did. We haven't gotten to that part part in the story but before we move on to that. >> Yeah. Honestly, it was hustle. >> Yeah. Like literally going outside of grocery stores and saying, "Hey, here we're doing this thing. Here's a flyer." >> Yeah. It's a unique business in that sense. Like when when you're SAS, right, it's it's a little harder to get in front of customers. That's why we have BDRs or SDRs and we're trying to get in front of people. But with that, it was like, we know our entire market is this geography. So, I'm going to be in front of every possible person I can be, and I'll sell it. Like, I'm not a saleserson by background, but I can sell anything that I believe in. >> So, yeah, it was just hustle. Like, I can't count how many people I know that I love and respect that have tried to start businesses >> and then they just like sit on their hands and wait for customers to come to them. I will go make this happen with whatever I have to do. >> And and that's what we did. and and yeah, like eventually we had more resources, right? You get to a million dollars in revenue and now you have cash to throw at marketing spend and all these other things to do it a little bit more traditionally or for us in the beginning like I was the technician. I was the salesperson. I was >> You would go out and service the homes. >> Yeah. And I was terrible. Terrible. Like so many stories of that. Like James and I, my co-founder, we went out and serviced one of our first homes. And there's like these backpacks with pesticides in them, right? And I had the backpack on. I accidentally pulled the trigger on the little spray gun and sprayed him in the face. the customer. No, my No, my co-founder James. Yeah. With pesticides. Another time I forgot to hook the backpack hose on all the way and walked into a customer's house and the hose came undone and my entire back backpack emptied into their into their house. Yeah. >> I didn't know you sprayed that interiorly. I didn't know that. Wow. You were inside the house. >> Yeah. So, just like like crazy little things, right? But we're like, I'm not going to spend on a like licensed applicator to go and like spray these people's homes. Like, I'll just figure it out and I'll go do that. And we've always been we sprayed we painted our first trucks by hand. >> Yeah. Like we literally lined my garage with plastic and got like these little spray guns and little masks and bought what we thought was automotive paint and like sanded down a Ford Ranger and sprayed it white so that we could have white trucks instead of this bright blue that we Those who are are not watching are just listening on Spotify or wherever you listen. I am like silently laughing to this story. I'm just imagine you and James sanding down a truck and painting it in your garage. >> Yeah. I still have stuff. I still have cleats that were in a box in my garage that have white paint on them from like the white paint like floating down onto this box of cleat. They're my baseball cleat. I wore them in just a couple weeks ago. >> That is hilarious. What did you paint it? Did you just paint it with your logo or your colors? >> No, just white. It was just white. We just wanted a white truck so that we could have >> Why didn't you just buy a white truck? >> Cuz we couldn't find one for the right price. We found this Ford Ranger that was like a stick shift old Ranger and it was bright blue and we're like that just doesn't fit. But it was like $1,000 instead of five. So we're like we can buy this truck, pay it for or spray it for 500 bucks or something. Yeah, pretty much. >> That's awesome. >> Yeah. But the whole interior, like when you open the doors, you could see the side of the door, you know, and that was still blue, >> but the outside was white. And so all of our customers thought that it was white. >> Cuz it took too much work to like open the doors and tape it out. >> This is a service truck. Yeah. That's hilarious. >> Okay, that's awesome. Okay, so you founded this pest control company, which was called what, by the way? >> Uh, Fulcrrim. >> How did that end up? I mean, obviously you learned a lot of lessons there, and we could probably really dive into that, but I'd love to get to current time. So the listener and viewers who are are listening right now, they can hear about your actual startup, your current startup in the SAS industry. >> Totally. >> But how did that end up? What? >> Well, side note that again, we could go down these rabbit holes forever, but during that time, during those 10 years, like five of that were absentee ownership. So we we built this business business up. It was doing incredibly well and we're like, why not try some other things? >> And so we ended up I I ended up starting a a porta-otti rental business. Totally. Side note, we're not going to go down that road. incredibly profitable business. As a side note, yeah, I I bought 20 portaotties out of the blue. Um because I called a construction company. I was like, "Hey, I can rent these portaotties, too. How much do you pay?" >> And they were like, it was like $200 a day. And I was like, "I'll do it for 100." And they're like, "Okay, we need 20." So, I bought 20 portaotties. And >> it was like 300 bucks >> and per portaotty. Yeah. >> And you could rent them for 100 a day. >> A day. Why would >> It's crazy. It's an awesome business. >> If you were listening to this, go do that right now. But some terrible stories cuz I also had to buy the big pump and like literally suck and service them and everything else. So yeah. >> Was that a truck pump or what? >> I literally had it built onto a custom trailer like a giant pump with a gun and a big hose and >> How was how was it powered? By gas. >> Uh yeah, it had like a gas powered motor on it. Yeah. >> Wow. >> Yeah. But so I started that. I ended up selling that. Moved to South Carolina. Ended up starting what's called a DSO during that same time. a dental service organization where we would buy dental practices. >> Um, we bought three of them. Um, [clears throat] >> we won't go down that road. That was by far our worst. >> Why? Really capital intensive and >> super capital intensive. We invested a ton of money. We had to get loans like SBA to be able to purchase these. >> Um, and [clears throat] it's an awesome business, but it's just it's just tricky. Um, honest like doctors are tough to work with. I love doctors. No shade, but but it was just a unique business and something that we weren't prepared for. So, we sold that at a major loss later down the road, but but yeah, so there were a couple other ventures during that time. >> Did you have partners in that deal? >> Yeah, there were three of us. >> Yeah, James actually was involved in that business, too. So, James and I have been >> intervening. So, was this pest control company spinning off a lot of cash or something? And so, that's why you said, "Okay, we got to go put this into other things and diversify and build up." >> And honestly, we just got bored. Um, which was stupid um because we had this awesome cash opportunity and we could have kept growing and kept expanding the business and we just got lazy and bored. Yeah. And so decided to try some other things. But >> but ultimately after those we came back and we're like okay if we're going to do this >> double down. >> Yeah. Let's go back into pest control. So we offloaded everything else went back into pest control. And this is where the story kind of becomes what is now driven. Um, we started wanting to understand the business and so we started looking at all the data that we had, all the resources and we were like techsavvy pest control company owners, right? And so we had our tech stack was like six wide from our CRM to GPS monitoring tools to voiceover IP and review collection, all of these pieces that were there, but it was taking me like 15 20 hours a week to collect and interpret this data. And that was just me. And that was just to know it, just to have it. Not to interpret it, not to in not to actually like execute on any changes that we wanted to do, just to have it. That's where the initial versions of what is now driven came about and we're like, hey, there's got to be a better way. >> Remind all the listeners and viewers, everybody paying attention right now, what is driven? >> Yeah. So driven and your your description of it at the beginning was pretty good. >> Okay, good. >> Um, but we have pivoted a little bit. So instead of a data analytics platform, we now call ourselves a performance management tool. Mhm. >> Because our goal is to make people better at their jobs in whatever job that is, whether that's management or the end level, right? In a pest control company, there's technicians. They're the ones that are out spraying your home. There's CSRs. They're the ones answering the phones. There's sales people that are out selling it. And then there's management. And our vision is collect all that data, interpret it, analyze it, and then feed it to the individual in real time so that they can actually make behavior changes. So basically from your pain of owning and managing a pest control business and you spending 15 to 20 hours a week just collecting data and trying to interpret it yourself, you said there has to be something that can do this. There really wasn't. So you built it. >> There truly wasn't. And there like Domo existed, right? Domo's like a top level BI dashboard and they're incredible at what they do. But for a pest control company owner to spend $50,000 on an enterprise Domo solution is totally impossible. Like it will it will never happen. and it's so complicated for them to try to understand that they'll never do it. >> So you said, "Wow, there's this opportunity." >> Yeah. >> And and in that moment, I mean, did you validate it first or did you ultimately say, "Oh, I got to get offload this pest control thing and I want to go all in on this software thing." >> Yeah. We didn't even know it was an opportunity. We were just building it for ourselves. >> Oh, you so you just started building it? >> Yeah. Yeah. We're like, "Hey, this has got to be valuable because because we need it." And so we started doing it. >> Built it internally at first. Okay. >> Yeah. and started testing it on our own employees and started seeing some real behavior changes which is the driver of success right like as an owner I can think that I have all this impact on the bottom line of the business but I really don't >> but it's it's enabling the employee >> yeah yeah and especially in a service business like those are the people they're the only driver of success in this business >> and so we started seeing those changes and we're like wait a second this might be something cool and so then we started reaching out to our contacts in the industry saying like hey can we manually validate this with you? Like we'll be the ones pulling the data manually. We'll write it down and we'll show it to you as if it was real time, as if it was technology and we'll put it in front of you and see what you do with it. >> So basically those 15 to 20 hours you were doing internally, you're like, "Hey, we'll go for we'll be this hamster in the background running on this wheel making all these things work for you and you're going to get this end result of data and actionable data, but we're going to go do that for you." And did did that work? And did you did you do that for people? Who? How many? >> Yeah, they I mean we had like five early early stage companies. >> Pilot customers. Yeah. And then we didn't charge them anything. We're like, "Hey, just let us show this." Very manual. >> Oh, super manual. Yeah. Basically paper, right? There was no technology behind it. >> Yeah. Oh. So, you hadn't built any software. What did you do internally for yourselves then? You didn't build any software. It was all manual. >> So, James in our like absentee ownership phase left and taught himself to code and built an app. Um, and so he had a a pretty basic but good understanding of how to build general things and it was a like my fitness pal basically but for macro tracking. >> Yeah. >> Um, and so he had some API access and and experience and so we played with that and he built like a version of it for us >> but yeah it was it was very very manual and then we ultimately ended up saying like hey if we're going to try this let's try it for real our version of what we thought was real. So, let's go find an outsourced dev shop to build build a a solution for us. And so, we spent $60,000 and went out and had a dev shop built. >> I didn't know that. Yeah. >> How did that >> Yeah. So, the version that I showed you, the very first version when we were raising our preed was built by one. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, and it was garbage. It was terrible. Terrible. Terrible. Our CTO like tore it down. Oh, yeah. It was gone. It was gone within like 2 months of us raising from you guys. >> Yeah. We're like, "Hey, this is this is something real." So, so how do you finally make the the decision to say, "Okay, wow, there is something really here." Sounds like you identified the pain internally yourself. You go out and you validate that with a five other organizations, pest control companies like yourselves. >> And you remember back to my note, when was the marker of when I think something's valid and real? It was five. When I get five check marks and so we had five customers that were like, "This is real. We need this." >> And they were liking what you were doing and they was like, "Wow, that we're seeing improvements." Yeah. Yeah. >> What was the tipping point for you when you're like, I have to go do this software play? >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly, it kind of ties into all these other things. For the la for those 10 years, I was so distracted. We had the pest control business. We had this porta-otty thing for a minute. We had the DSO and I was so distracted. I love like having my hands in different things, but I was like, "Hey, the future for me has got to be something. It's got to be a bit more focused than what I've done in the past. I just need to decide what we're going to do." And we had already started delving into these two things again. It was pest control and it was this software tool. >> And and so we got to the point we're like, hey, let's just do this. Yeah. >> Let's go all in. We started marketing to sell the pest control company. Um that happened. >> What year was this? >> That was 22. >> 2022. >> Yeah. Yep. >> And you're just like, hey, who wants to buy a pest control company? >> Yeah. Yeah. We had a good friend who was a broker. Um we didn't end up using him uh because he didn't find a very good deal. And then I ended up having a connection to a company based in Florida. They're called Truly Nolan. It's a big big pest control company and they came out and loved us and wanted to buy it and and we made it happen. So yeah, end of 22 is when we sold Fulcrum entirely. So we were completely out and then January of that year was when we were like, "Okay, let's let's go into this full force." And I think you and I met >> in like March or April. >> How did we Who connected us? >> Uh Cody Barber. >> Oh, yeah. That's right. >> Who's another Porco of you guys with Baton? >> Yep. I remember that. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, how did you know back when you were in the pest control business falling into this idea, building this solution initially just for yourself internally? How did you know that this software was going to be more promising than just continuing down this pest control business path? Because >> I feel like when you have a very mature business like your pest control business, like even so mature that you could basically step out and do side projects all the time, that's a very nice spot to be in when you're just spitting off cash and you're having success. You have a nice lifestyle. I'm assuming you're paying yourselves well. You and James are at the head of this thing. How did you have the knowledge to say, "No, I need to I need to do a product company, not this services company." How could you, you know, maybe describe that situation for our viewers and listeners because I feel like that's a very big entrepreneurial battle? Like for example, I teach and mentor a ton of people all the time and all the ideas coming my way are very small business ideas, right? Where it's like >> servicesbased companies and like it's really hard for the average entrepreneur to think really really big or think product or think scalable. But I feel like you innately just thought, I know I have to be in software. Were you just attracted to technology? What was it? >> No, it wasn't really software. It wasn't tech. Um, this is another little soap box of mine, but and this makes me sound like an idiot when I was growing up. I swear I wasn't this dumb, but but I thought all growing up that creativity meant that you were an artist or meant that you played the piano or meant that you, you know, could do any of those like traditional creative things. Mhm. >> And I learned later in life, unfortunately, and I try to teach my kids this now, that creative means create. >> Yeah. >> Right. And in the pest control business, I wasn't creating. I wasn't doing anything. Yeah. I was creating jobs, and yes, that's a good thing. And I was creating, you know, revenue streams and all these things, and that's that's good, but I wasn't creating anymore. I wasn't like building anything. >> Was it really just an internal decision of like, I want to be more creative than Yeah. Wow. And tied with the fact that I knew this was something big. I knew this could have a real impact on the industry when no one else. >> I think after you talking to those customers and validating their pain and problem as well as yours, you're like, "Oh, wow. I I'm not the only one with this problem." So, you saw the writing on the wall by saying, "This market is huge that we could be servicing." >> Yeah. And I knew the space. I knew there was value. This wasn't just like, "Hey, like some pest control company came to my house and I was like, "Oh, that'd be cool if they had this." Right? Like I'd been in the trenches and I knew it. And so, so yeah, of course that added confidence to what I wanted, but I knew that I was made to create more than what I was doing at the time. And so, so yeah, honestly, it wasn't even like a question for me. And that maybe again comes back to this like irrational confidence concept, right? Like it wasn't even a question. It was like, of course, if we're going to do this, let's offload. >> Yeah. I just find that interesting because the the average entrepreneur probably wouldn't have thought that same way. >> Yeah. which says to your just internal gut feeling and you know what you think internally. >> Yeah. And I got a bunch of crap for that honestly. What do you mean? >> Like for selling a big business to do something that's crazy risky. >> Risky. >> Yeah. Like a ton of flak saying why would you do that? I like my family and I love my family. They're really supportive. Like I have five older brothers and all of them like I would >> play pickle ball from like 9:30 a.m. to 11:30 a.m. every day when I was running that business. And then I go out from 11:30 to noon. And then I'd go to lunch with somebody. And then I', >> you know, all these things like my life as far as what people see was awesome. And it was like the chillest like most like relaxed kind of lifestyle, >> but I felt so unfulfilled. >> And maybe I'll get to that point again where I want to do those things, but for now I'm like, "No, I need to I need to build. I need to do something." >> I get it. That's a great answer. So, you come to us, we fund you, you sell the business, you have a great exit there, by the way, >> you move to Utah. Yeah. >> What What was the move to Utah, by the way? What brought you back [clears throat] to Utah? >> Yeah. So, >> you just wanted to end up here. >> Yeah. Kind of. And And like I had family up I live in Heber now, right? And and I have family up there and my parents were in Jackson >> is like South Park City basically. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. And it's beautiful, right? Incredible place. My parents lived in out just outside of Jackson Hole in Star Valley, Wyoming. Um and and it was just like a way to be semi close to to people that we knew and and my kids were getting a little bit older. >> So you knew when you were doing this next thing, you wanted to be building it here in Utah. >> Yeah. And then on top of that, like I I knew some of the Utah startup scene and I knew that it was growing at the time and getting bigger and it's still continuing to get bigger and bigger and I didn't want to live in San Francisco again. Um even though I loved it there and so to say like, hey, if we're going to do tech, we're going to do this. Utah's probably a good place for us with Silicon Slopes and obviously we ended up meeting you. Yeah. >> Um and for the record, you guys invested like on a hope and a prayer like like we were really early stage. >> I I still think that we were pretty rigorous in our due diligence with you, right? like like I feel like we asked and demanded a lot of things that you didn't have at the time. But again, I think what stuck out about you and your >> Pest IQ now driven, I remember when it was called Pest IQ, that's another story. >> We shouldn't even mention that. That name is terrible. >> Uh so, but when you brought us the driven, again, what stuck out was you and your capabilities, your skill, your knowledge, but also it was more so around the market of the idea. I thought the idea was great, but again, business intelligence and analytical dashboards and all those things existed, but I think it was the automatic plug into the market that you were servicing that was really the initial spark for us. It was like, wow, Adam can bring this to his contacts and ultimately right off the bat get sales and start generating revenue on this thing relatively quickly. Yeah. Where a lot of um founders that we meet don't have that opportunity to just automatically get revenue and sales going. So that was very attractive. >> Yeah, I appreciate that. >> Now take us to where you are today. You get a CTO, an actual developer who starts building this new non um dev shop version of the app. >> You start contacting those five customers and more of your contacts. Where where do you begin with the check? Like when we wrote the check, what was the very first thing that you did, spent money on, started the ball rolling down the hill on? >> Yeah, I mean I went to Hawaii. I just No, I'm just [laughter] kidding. I didn't spend any of your money that way. >> Adam the eyes. >> Um, no, we I mean immediately we said, "Hey, we need to build this product the right way." Right. Yeah. It was all product. >> Um, and I also, which in hindsight was probably a little bit too early, I started going to these conventions. Like every state has a pest control state association conference. >> Oh, really? >> Um, and so there's an opportunity to be at one of these like twice a month if I wanted to. And so I started going to the big ones, starting started developing relationships, starting talking to people and ultimately started selling almost on accident like, "Hey, this is the concept." And and I have this tendency anyways to just assume that we're good and assume the sale. Um, which I'm sure my CTO again has some some issues with occasionally. Um, but we started selling at a really early stage, like saying, "Hey, here's the concept. Is this something interesting to you?" And people just kept saying, "Yes, yes, yes, yes." and we started like getting these people into like onboarding mode. It didn't go quickly. Um it took a long time to get most of those people onboarded, but just started wanting to develop relationships and wanted to build out the product the way that our customers wanted. We we had a little bit of information, right, with those five clients and with us. But that's still not enough to build a market leading solution. And so we wanted to get feedback from other people. What would they use? Why would they use it? How would they use it? What value would it add? And so we needed more input to be able to get get that output. >> Yeah. >> And so we started getting feedback, started, you know, surveying people. I started building a customer advisory panel um of some high-end people in the industry and we got >> they could really direct the product. >> Yeah. Who's somebody who's now the CEO of one of the largest pest control companies in the world um is on my advisory board. And so so he comes in and he's able to support us in really cool ways. and we start building out this this panel to say like, hey, this is how you should build it and this is what value you can add. On top of that, I know like I'll be totally honest like they were a huge opportunity for us as well because each of those people has contacts and their own companies that we could that we could work with. >> But yeah, just started trying to figure out how we were going to do this and that's really where we shifted into this performance management tool instead of just a top level BI dashboard that could be compared with a couple other solutions. It's obviously gone relatively well. I mean, because you don't just go and raise a $2.5 million seed round with no traction, right? So, you get it to a point where you're actually onboarding customers, delivering product, >> you know, changing their own companies, giving them results, giving them actionable data. Take take me into the the fundraising arena for a second because >> I feel like you raised relatively quickly from us. you'll raise relatively quickly on that next round. And that's usually not the case for your average entrepreneur. A lot of entrepreneurs are almost kind of hitting their head against the wall saying like, why can I not attract any VC or any investment to what I'm doing? What did you do? How do you approach investment and why do you feel like it's been such a swimmingly activity for you? >> Yeah. So, I mean, it's storytelling, right? Like raising money is just storytelling. Um, and I I'd like to think of myself as a pretty good storyteller. And we have a good story like in full honesty. We have a good story about what we are. >> What makes a good story? >> Yeah. I mean, the right pieces, right? Like in a book, you have an introduction, you have like the meat, you've got good like cliffhanger, you know, some other pieces that come into it and then a good potential ending. And we don't have an ending yet, but we have a good trajectory into that >> vision into it. Yeah. >> Um, and so all those things fit together and told the right way tells a good story. But I struggle with hearing the stories and and I don't mean this in a negative way to any other any other entrepreneur because I honestly would love to have like conversations about what this looks like. But you see on LinkedIn, right? Like, hey, I've done the VC tour and I've I've met with 60 VC firms across the country and 59 nos and one maybe and they're like working through all this stuff. When we went to fund raise, I'm like, I'm not going to do it. Like number one, I don't have the time. I don't have the energy. I want to build an actual business. So, I'm going to keep building. We met with two VC firms. One was the one that led the round. I mean, not including you guys. We met with you guys as well, obviously. >> Um, >> what about when you when you raised that preede fund from us? It was two as well. >> Two. Yeah. Another preede investor here in Utah. >> Yeah. >> And us? >> Yeah. And you guys? Yeah. >> Yeah. And you guys wrote the check and and Yeah. So, for me, it was like, hey, if we're going to do this, we're going to find somebody that really believes and I'm going to do the research first. And so, like, I went and looked at funds that invested in our space, that liked what we were doing. Um, we ended up meeting with a firm here in Utah who I have a ton of respect for, but they wanted us to be a billion dollar company. And I was realistic with them. And I was like, "Guys, I could lie to you and say that we are. I'm okay with a $200 million company, >> $300 million company. I'm I'm not going to push us to be a billion dollar company. And if you want that, >> I mean, let's just be honest with each other now." And so the even the other one of the two that we met with, it was basically like, "Hey, we're not the right fit." Yeah. >> And we knew that going in. >> Um, but the other company, they loved the concept before I even met with them. I knew that they loved that type of concept because I'd talked to their other port. I'd reached out to them on LinkedIn. >> Wow. So, the answer here is a lot of research prior to actually >> because I'm not just going to go waste my time and fly to Chicago and meet with this investor because I want their money. like I'm going to I'm going to do the work and figure out who actually wants to invest in this space and then I become the carrot for them. >> So what do you what did you look for when you went out and set out for that? Help our help our listeners right now understand what should they be doing to have a successful road show and actually come out with a check. What should they be doing right now? Is it research? >> Yeah. >> Is it identifying your your your your ideal VC target or or >> Well, yes. But before that even happens, you have to have the right story for the right scenario. In preede with you guys, it was just me, right? And the concept of what we were and what we could be and the the work that we'd put into it. That was the story that was appealing to you guys. With the seed round, the story was where is our traction? What have we done? How have we converted? What is our attrition? And that story matched up. I wasn't going to go raise money if we didn't have the story behind it. Like there was just no way. I wasn't going to go put myself in front of you guys and be like, "Hey, we want 2 and a.5 million, but we've, you know, we've had $10,000 a month in in revenue and a 12% churn." >> Kind of a floundering. >> Yeah. Like, why why would I even put myself in front of >> it? So, it's it's research. >> Yeah. >> One, two, is actually have a healthy business. >> Yeah, of course. >> And I heard the word traction in there. I I don't know if you've ever heard or seen this video or concept from a guy named Ash Moira, but Ash Moira has a really cool video that says the one metric to kill them all, it's traction. >> Yeah. >> So, in whatever shape or form of metric that comes in, you just need to show traction. And if you have traction >> in whatever format that is, >> you will kill a VC conversation, >> right? And we did. And that's why we went like why would I even go to you? I love founders and and I have some of this myself and so I I I'm speaking for myself and not for anybody else. >> You mean you mean prematurely going and having those >> conversations? Yeah. But we think that we have this successful business and we're like, "Oh, it's going to be so great. It's going to do this and I believe it's going to do this." >> The uninformed optimism. >> Yeah. But VCs don't care, right? Like you don't care about my vision. You do in preede for sure, but you don't care at a seed round or a series A. Like you want it to be something that has some motion. And that's a separate conversation for a separate time. I think VC has changed a little bit less into like early stage vision investing and more into traction investing. >> But even >> we do invest in vision and preede. But still what we have to identify and my job and John's job, my dad's job, what we ultimately look for is validation. >> If there's no traction, there needs to be validation that the traction can be there, right? It's like, >> yeah, >> how many customers have you talked to? How many pre-sales do you have lined up? What does your product actually look like? Is it feasible? Is this a is this a pipe dream or are you actually going to be able to build this application? Like it's like we have to determine, okay, what is realistic and what is not? And the more realistic that a startup can be and the more promising that that realism is, the better and more attractive you look, at least in the preede stage. So, I love your tactics and I I just wanted to ask you that because we have other portfolio company founders who have had a harder time raising that next check. It is just peeling back the layers and saying, "Okay, are we actually a healthy business? Do we have something good going on here or are we prematurely going out to the VC markets and trying to, you know, sell something that actually is not sellable?" Right. So, >> and there's a lot of scenarios where you need it. >> Yeah. >> Right. And that's that's not a good time to raise. If you need it, it's dangerous because people can see that and they can sense it and they can feel it. No matter what story you tell, desperation, they can see it a little bit in you. For us, it was like >> like, sure, we'll take your money and we'll we'll make a lot out of it, but we don't need it. We can survive right now. We'll continue to grow. >> Would you have gotten to profitability without that? >> Absolutely. >> Really? There was a question. So, why did you raise? >> Yeah. because of what it could do for us in the future. And we had some people trying to come into the space and compete with us in in some unique ways. >> Um and so it was like, hey, let's just go win. >> You wanted to double down and get the win. >> Yeah. Yeah. We're winners and we're going to do what it takes to to win. >> Yeah. I mean, your metrics are impressive. I mean, this is nothing that the public can't go and look up themselves, but from your your articles at Fundra, you had 400% growth in eight months. Um, you had zero churn, 100% retention. Those metrics had to have helped the fund raise. You know, those are glowing statistics and metrics that you can go and tell a VC, look at what we've been able to accomplish. >> Yeah. And I always tell people like we have turn now, right? Like we've had some churn and some things like that. But but we're we were realistic. We're like, hey, we know what we can do. We know what we've done, and if we put this fuel into it, we can turn it into X, Y, and Z. And of course, there's going to be hiccups. We've already since funding had some like some roller coaster, right? Every time someone asks me how it's going, I'm like, it's amazing and terrible and awesome and exhausting and everything. The life of a founder, the life of a founder, >> but it's but yeah, we have that that vision and we know what we're doing and we're going to we're going to go get it. >> Yeah. I saw a startup meme on social media like two days ago and it was like this guy laying in bed and there was just like neurons firing in his head at like and it the clock was like 2 a.m. I'm like dude and it was like life of a startup founder. It's like it just never stops because you're thinking about the problems today, you're thinking about the problems tomorrow, you're thinking about what fires you need to put out, you everything's going on. So >> that's just the life of that's the journey of a founder. Okay, before we wrap up, because we are getting close on time, >> I always like to ask all of our guests, put yourselves back to the 20-year-old Adam >> and knowing what you know today. What What is the tactic? What is the focus? What is the tip? What What are you telling yourself 20-year-old, 19-year-old Adam to start your entrepreneurial journey? Like that book that I know you've read it. that book, what what I wish I knew when I was 20 by Tim Cake. What What do you wish you knew when you were 20? >> Yeah, I I struggle with that one honestly because >> honestly you can't summarize. >> I wouldn't have listened. >> Yeah. >> So, it doesn't matter. >> Like I would have and and the thing that I tell other people, right? And that I'm inherently good or bad at. I don't know which one it is still yet to this day. The jury is still out. Yeah. >> And they're like, "Hey, I have this idea. I want to stop it." >> And that was the one thing that I was always good at >> was getting off your butt and doing it. >> Yeah. Just go do something. I'll figure it out. Maybe it'll suck. Maybe it'll be great, but I'll figure it out and I'm going to go do it. >> And so, >> like >> that's that's the advice. >> Yeah. But it wasn't to me cuz I was already going to do it and I was going to do it. So, I I tell that to other people, >> but I wouldn't I wouldn't change the things that I did. I literally there have been crazy highs and crazy lows. I remember at one point it was like Valentine's Day when I owned the pest control company. One of my top executives called me and he's like, "Hey, Adam, you're going to want to sit down." And I'm like, "I'm good. Tell me what's up." He's like, "I'm leaving the business. I'm taking these clients with me and these employees with me, and it totals up to like $300,000 a year, and I'm going to start a new company on my own." >> Oh, man. Yeah. And I remember just like sitting on the stairs in my house and I'm like, >> I'm screwed. >> I'm screwed. Yep. >> My life's gone. Like it we literally like that money is just like >> wiped away. Yeah. Immediately missing. And I bought a flight for Valentine's Day night, flew down to Texas, get things in motion. And like, so would I go back and change that? I don't even know because And yes, it sucked. It was like one of the lowest lows that I've ever had. Like I've had people steal from me. I've had people selling drugs out of my trucks when I own a pest control company. Like all kinds of crazy stories. Would I go back and be like, "Hey, don't do this or go don't do don't do this or don't do that." >> I don't think I would because it it makes me who I am now. >> What you know now. >> Yeah. And >> it's the learning experiences. >> Okay. So maybe not going back and telling your 20-year-old self, but >> um so I like that advice is just do it. Like act and actually get off your butt and make things happen. So don't just talk about it or wish about it or you know sit down and think about it. Actually go put it into action. Yeah. >> What So for the listeners and viewers then everybody who's listening to this podcast right now, they're like, "Wow, Adam story, I'm really relating. I love this." What is the one thing you're telling them? like someone who's a budding entrepreneur, someone who's building right now, someone who wants to be a startup founder or someone who is actively building and they're trying to get to that first raise or they're trying to get to that first customer or they're trying to get to their f that version one of their product. What are you telling them? What's the one thing that comes to your mind on that question? >> Validate. >> Validation. >> Validate first. >> Yeah. Because And there are ways to do it for free. I promise you. People think like software you've got to build the tool first. We didn't. >> Yeah. >> We didn't build it first. He just went and painted the picture in front of the customer and said, "Look, we have this problem. We think you might have this problem. It's going to look like this, this, and this. What do you think about it?" >> Right? And before we started the suit company, we took paper and walked around UVU campus and asked like 900 kids, what would you buy? Would you buy it? How much would you spend? >> Yeah. Just to get pricing, >> to get information, like just to know, is there even a market for what we think there is a market for? >> And 820 of them said, "Yes, I'd buy it today if it was $150." >> Yeah. We're like, "Cool, >> that's pretty awesome." Yeah, we have 800 people that just told us yes, now let's go build it for them. And we took down their phone numbers and their email addresses and we probably sold 500 of them later on down the road. That's great. >> And so there's just there is a way to test >> before you go fully allin to build it. And then once you do test it, like keep going, keep working, keep just get off your butt and go do it. >> Well, you know us pretty well by now. Like we're huge lean startup advocates like that. We eat, sleep, breathe lean startup, which means Yeah. hypothesizing, testing, validating, concluding on it. That is literally what we teach and preach every single day. I'm interested. Are did did you believe that way from the beginning? Because it sounds like even doing that suit thing at UVU at your your college campus, you were doing that anyway. >> Yeah, totally. Yeah. We didn't I mean, we didn't know what it was. >> Yeah. You didn't know that it was lean start process or methodologies behind it? >> Yeah. We just knew that we needed information. >> Like why why would I go start a suit company if I didn't think anyone was going to buy a suit from me? >> Yeah. That seems like basic knowledge, but you'd be surprised. That's like [laughter] honestly the biggest startup killer is just >> preemptively building, preemptively buying, preemptively doing things without actually knowing if there's someone who's going to >> Yeah, totally. >> We are going to conclude this. I want to emphasize again how cool and smart Adam actually is. I know he's talked down on himself today, but half the reason I wanted Adam to come on the podcast and I kept inviting him was because I knew he would be such a great insight for everybody here because again I am shocked that you felt so down on yourself. That is not the Adam that I know. So you definitely upgraded and you ate the Mario mushroom and then you you have upgraded to the better version of Adam. Thank you so much for watching. We're going to wrap up this episode. Adam's journey is a huge reminder of validation, testing, storytelling, uh, diligence, building, getting off your butt and doing it. Follow him on LinkedIn, follow him on social media. Adam is such a great guy. Like, subscribe here, share this with your friends. Thank you so much for watching. But we are going to conclude this episode of the Startup Ignition Podcast. Rock it back. Next to rock. [music]