Cahlan & Colt

Hey. What's up? I heard you're uh interviewing our guest. >> Do you need Do you need some guests on your podcast? >> you? >> [laughter] >> We're just here to rescue you. >> Wait, what? >> What's up? >> I was prepared for Joseph. >> I know you [laughter] did. >> What the crap? Are we doing a Dev Mountain reunion or something? >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah, we are. That's what it is. >> No way. You did it to me once. >> WHAT THE HECK? >> THIS IS [laughter] ACTUALLY AWESOME. I'VE BEEN TRYING TO GET YOU on the podcast forever. It's It's for cool AI, but hey. >> Yeah, there we go. >> What the crap? >> Here we are. >> This will be fun. If you know about the startup mission background, Tyler uh made his fame and fortune by leaving college and starting a company with these two guys here in the building, and we're going to talk all about that. Hey, welcome to the Startup Mission podcast. This is the old guy being the host today instead of Tyler because we just sprung a surprise on Tyler. We have not the guest we had planned today. I did what he did to me a few months ago with somebody that he surprised me on, and today I surprised him with his two co-founders from Dev Mountain, the legendary dev boot camp that changed everything on the tech scene in Utah and was one of the best dev boot camps in the country. We got Kaylen Sharp, the CEO, another co-founder, Colt Henry, Tyler's co-founder. These are the three that made it happen. It's going to be such a fun day. Were you surprised Tyler? >> Yeah, I really was. [laughter] I was like I I was telling Kaylen pre-podcast, I'm like, I saw his pink hat walk into the room. I'm like, [laughter] that's not Joseph. We had another guest that was supposed to be here. I literally didn't >> He'll come in in few weeks. >> I had been planning it for like 5 days, like working with the assistant back and forth for apparently a fake scheduling. So, >> [laughter] >> that's kind of crazy. >> on your face was worth it. >> Yeah, that was worth it. >> I was like, what? >> And speaking of hats, we should have coordinated cuz I was >> I know. We should You know, on all of your guys' podcasts, you're the one that usually wears the hat. >> So, I was going to wear a hat for you and like honors, but I was like, "Caleb's not going to wear a hat." And here he is [laughter] with that. >> coordinate this, too. >> This is fine. Okay, so I'm going to try to >> be host. Tyler's like the world's greatest moderator, but I'll try to be a good moderator. >> an agenda, but it's for a completely different podcast, [laughter] so. >> Yeah, that's not going to work. >> That went out the window. >> And actually, I've got to turn off my phone. Like we had no I need to do this all the time. >> you prepare anything for like an icebreaker? >> I've got it. Don't worry. We're set. >> yes, we do. >> What? >> Okay, they know I Did I talk to you guys about an icebreaker in advance? >> Oh my gosh. >> Okay, here we go. All right, well, welcome everybody. This will be fun. If you know about the Startup Edition background, Tyler uh made his fame and fortune by leaving college and starting a company with these two guys here in the building and we're going to talk all about that. So, first an icebreaker though, cuz we like to start with icebreakers. So, here's my icebreaker. And then also, before we get to too much DevMountain, we're going to hear the backgrounds of these two a little bit. >> Well, I was going to say we should introduce some so everybody knows who these two are. >> We are. Before that >> We're assuming a lot of knowledge here. >> I um Well, I'm going to start with an icebreaker, then we'll get to the backgrounds. Okay? >> Okay. All right. So, first of all, here's the icebreaker. All three of you have to answer and it's a very simple icebreaker to get the juices flowing, your memories going on DevMountain. I want to hear the greatest moment for you in the history of DevMountain and the worst moment for you in the history of DevMountain. >> Well, I think the worst moment >> And you've had less time to think about it. So, we'll start with the CEO, Caleb. He gets to start first, then we'll go to Colt, then to Tyler. >> Okay. >> Well, I The best moment is hard because there were a lot of good moments. The the The few that came to mind though was was one, finding Colt passed out in a closet because he'd stayed up all night working on getting one of our cohorts set up. That was just like this moment where it was yeah, Colt's amazing and it was just fun to see that. Another another really great, but also slightly terrifying moment was when I watched one of the students from a Dallas cohort tattoo our logo on his arm. >> Oh, I remember that. >> That was one of those moments where I was just like, this is this is real. >> And it's also validating though. He tattooed the DevMountain logo? >> Yeah, yeah. On his >> his arm. >> Not a henna tattoo? Like a real tattoo? >> tattoo. 100%. >> He had a sleeve, so it kind of blended in with >> had other tattoos, but it was right there. >> On his bicep, yeah, yeah. >> How come you three don't have a tattoo? >> [laughter] >> I don't know. Maybe I do. Maybe you haven't seen it yet. I don't know. >> Right, Colt? We'll get it if Kaylin [laughter] gets it. >> I'm saying nothing cuz maybe I already have, so. >> Hey, I like it. >> All right, anything else, Kaylin? >> I think the last well, best moments in general is just every single time I run into a grad, which is still today, by the way, and I find out how DevMountain has changed their life. That's always a highlight for me. >> Oh my gosh, Tyler and I run into that cuz you know with what we're doing, we meet with thousands of people a year and it comes up, I'd say somewhere between 20 to 40% of the time when we're talking to Utah people. >> Yeah. >> It's crazy. >> It's amazing. >> And what's really fun is they, you know, weren't coders before they went to DevMountain bootcamp, Dev bootcamp, and now they're like CTO of major companies. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's crazy like you guys really created real engineers and they're gone to lofty pursuits and I have high positions. It's pretty amazing. >> Yeah, it is. >> And then you see that too, it sounds like. >> Oh yeah, absolutely. And it's still still very meaningful. >> Yeah, technically these were the three founders cuz I helped you guys advising along the way, so I feel a little bit a part of it too, so it's kind of fun. It's so rewarding when >> You are my dad. >> [laughter] >> It's so rewarding when their parents saw the whole journey, too. It's so rewarding when somebody finds out Tyler was with DevMountain, and they go, "I went there." What's so funny me I mean Kaylin I'm not throwing you under the bus here but me and Colt we were really young. >> Yeah. Very young. >> Like when we sold I was 28. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like and looking back 10 and we haven't even said anything yet. The real reason why you probably sprung this on me and surprised me with my two co-founders of kind of a launchpad of all of our careers was because it's a 10 years ago that we sold the company started even >> Almost even 15 years ago. >> Very close to 10 years almost exactly so. >> day it was May 4th I remember cuz we thought it was so funny it was like May the 4th be with you with Star Wars. We >> [laughter] >> We thought it was so funny. It was like oh we're we're selling on May 4th. >> We'll get into the stories of that finish everything. Colt what do you answer the icebreaker question as >> And we're doing just the best right now right? >> What well did you have any worst moments? >> Well I can this is probably not going to be on my mind. >> Yeah the worst was when Tyler and our CFO which was Colt's wife Cassidy called me while I was on a trip uh in New York with my wife to tell me that we were running out of money in like four to six weeks. That was That was the worst moment. >> Yeah that was hard. >> That was [laughter] a fun period of time. A fun period of time. >> And part of that probably Colt's worst moment was when you were gone me and Colt got together for probably about 48 hours straight went to his office for about 12 of those hours and we're like what are we going [laughter] to do? Do you remember that? >> No it was like over Thanksgiving right? >> I think it was two days before Thanksgiving or something. >> And so we stayed home >> Like our all of my wifes and and her and my family are from Idaho and so Thanksgiving comes around our heater our house broke down we thought we're going bankrupt Cassie gets sick and she's like throwing up and I'm just sitting here I'm like this is the worst Thanksgiving ever I had nothing [laughter] to be thankful for and now it's one of the best holidays ever so. >> So the great Dev Mountain cash flow crisis that really wasn't a crisis. >> Okay we'll talk about that. >> Yeah it wasn't yeah. So best and worst moments for you. >> Yeah what's your best one? >> Yeah, you want me to start it with the sweet and then go to the sour? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can do it either way. >> the worst one first because then it it rolls in cuz I knew that we were going to say have maybe some of the same best and worst, but a personal worst for mine was at one time we hired an employee and this kind of shows like how important key employees are and this employee like oh, Cole sucks at this. Cole says this, you know. >> down talk you. >> you and then even with like me with you guys and say you know, Cole's not the guy and everything, but I'm glad you guys stayed in there for me, right? So that time when he was there, I would say feeling alone and on island for that stint of time probably was like the worst time and that's what it it pulls into the best time. Like Caleb says, there's too much. It's like when we started, we were like a team. We were like trying to conquer the world together, right? Like trying to take down the the walls of Troy as all Greece, you know, and so then when I felt I isolated, that was the worst, but then afterwards we came back together and that's when we grew the company to multiple locations. We went through the acquisition and so many good times and I'd say just even like getting excited about us through getting our first cohort and having it filled and just like seeing the stars in their eyes. Like those are some of the best ones. >> This is not my best moment for me yet, but I do remember some some of really good times where we would go travel and we would go to these different places just us three and we just explore and be like, okay, is Boise, Idaho going to work? Like let's go up there for a couple of days, meet people, shake hands, talk to municipalities, talk to co-working spaces, see what kind of, you know, ecosystems up there that we could tap into. Same thing in Dallas. Oh, let's go view the apartments we would actually rent. Let's go look at the space and square footage we would actually slap down, right? >> Yeah. >> That that That was fun times. Like just going around together and just be like, "Okay, like dude, we built this." Like >> So, you guys had each other's backs, you felt >> Oh, yeah, for sure. >> Yeah. >> And that reminds me >> today, it's cool that you guys are even coming [laughter] on the podcast today and we're still friends and we're still going at it and like we're all doing our own separate things like that, but like >> and I know you can attest to this, those were some good people. Just even outside of us three, right? >> Yeah, exactly. I mean, I still talk to a lot of the team, you know what I mean? And you guys do, too. I I think you work with a couple >> your core team was amazing. >> Yeah, it was great team. >> You know, what you said here, Colt, reminds me of an experience I had with Omniture, which is a legendary company in the Utah market here that literally was bought by Adobe and now Utah has thousands of Adobe employees and it's basically built this incredible city of Lehi that is a tech powerhouse in the world, right? And the two founders of Omniture, they're very famous here locally, Josh James and John Pestana. All during the time and all the tumultuous history in that company and the ups and downs, they literally each had each other's back. Josh always had John's back and John had Josh's back and they were very different people with different roles, one more flamboyant and out front, one in the back scene getting stuff done and they just all the time they never let any outsider, investor, venture capitalist or employee weaken their relationship, which was really cool. And that's what you guys are saying you did. >> And it's rare, too. Like I always tell people if you can start a company with somebody and at the end of it not have sued them or like you can still talk to them, that's a pretty good outcome, right? >> and a lot of people don't know this, we didn't know we didn't know each other that well before doing anything. >> Yeah, it was kind of an arranged marriage. >> It was. >> Like maybe two months before we started and I and I met you literally day of we started. Like I remember getting brought into the team and they're like, "Oh, this guy, Kaylin Sharp, he he says he can make the curriculum and like be the the head instructor and everything and take care of that whole side of the house. He's like, "Who's Kaylin?" I I think I called you Callahan for a while. >> [laughter] >> You and everybody else. >> That's Irish, right? >> Yes, of course. >> What's crazy is we became official business partners before we met in person. >> I know. Hey, let's not advise anyone else to do that. >> Yeah, not a good idea. [laughter] >> Generally speaking, we got very lucky. >> Yeah, but apparently arranged marriages work better than other marriages. >> Yeah, sometimes they do. [laughter] >> So, I've got a pattern we're going to follow for the show, but I'm going to have Tyler give one more clear best and worst moment. >> Okay, I'll go quick. I'll I'll move go quickly. I remember this so vividly. So, should I start worst or best? I'll follow the worst best. So, worst and then we'll end on best. Worst one was from that cash crunch, we had to fire some people. >> Yeah. >> I knew you were going to share this one. >> And I was in charge of doing the actual firing or one of them. I think we all kind of took turns, but one of them was so bad. I was in the basement of our Salt Lake City location. >> You were there with me? And we fired him together and I think we dragged it out so long. It was so like I think it was 45 minutes. >> It's excruciating. >> It was torture. >> If you've ever fired anybody, you know not to do that. It's like quick, dirty, and done and just get it over with and just don't even apologize. >> hard when they're a friend. >> Yeah. And this guy was a friend, right? And we were firing him and then he he tells me at the end of the firing, "Hey, I don't have a car. I need a ride home." >> Yeah. >> And so I gave him a 20 to 30-minute ride home from our our campus location and it extended it and the pain even longer. And I remember he was crying on the way home. I started crying in the car. I dropped him off. He like walks up to the house. He like turns his head like like like a kid in a movie like, "Okay, see you later." And I'm like, "This is the worst moment of my career." It was so bad. >> Firing people is one of the hardest entrepreneurial things to have to do, especially when it's like you have to do it for the survival of the business, but it's a friend and you like him and you know, contributor, it's kind of it's kind >> I you know, having fired enough people in my life that you know, seen this happen a bunch of times, but like there are times where you can try to make it short and sweet, but but there are times where literally employees begging you, begging you for their job and there's just nothing you can do and it is awful. It's awful. And if anybody says they love to fire people, they're a narcissist in my opinion because it's just awful. >> Well, our last podcast that we did here and we filmed, it's it's not lunch yet, but it will be by the time we launch this was Karine Clark and she it has been a CEO of very high places >> for times with large companies. >> And I don't know, not that she it likes firing, but from what I could tell during that podcast, like she's really [laughter] good at firing. >> You can be good at it. I think you can be good at it. You need to be good at it, right? >> was even saying she was the one that saying like, yeah, just quick and you don't apologize and you just say this is what the decision is, this is what's best for the company. >> It's one thing though when it's a you know, 500 person company versus a 30 to 40 person company and you've all been pulling in the same direction for a few years. That's hard, right? >> All right, best one was I remember this super vividly too is I was interviewing a candidate for the marketing team. You know, when we had hit our like paces, right? We were growing, we were doubling down on an employee head count, we had multiple campuses, we were just hiring kind of a lower level marketing person. I can't even remember the position. And I was going through like a handful of candidates and I had got down to like the top five in person that I was going to interview. And I remember them coming in and saying like, "Oh, I love DevMountain." I'm like, "You love DevMountain? What do you mean? How do you even know who we are?" "Oh, I've been wanting to work here for like the last year." I'm like, "What are you talking about? Like, how do you like we're not that big, we're not that cool." And I just remember the moment thinking in my head, "Holy crap, like we're a destination. Like people want to be here. People want to learn here. People want to work here. People want to come here. People want to participate in this ecosystem." And I was like, "Wow." It was kind of like a made it moment for me. And from that moment on, I was like, "Okay, we're doing the right things." And I had so much more confidence in what we were doing, and things just started like snowballing like crazy from that moment. But it was just such a cool moment as like a founder. Like, "We built this thing from the ground up, and people want to be here." It was It was >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And 10 years later, as Kaelen said, as you and I experienced, look at the impact on so many people. >> Yeah. >> Now, DevMountain, for the views and listeners that don't know, um and we're going to go in the history in just a little bit, but it really was a game changer and really impacted the Utah tech scene, and you did create something very cool. And it's the way you three mesh together as a mentor advisor, looking from the outside in a little bit, you guys It's your relationship as founders, and your desire to change the world with an incredible product and service, but also create value and wealth for the stakeholders. Everybody Stakeholders are you guys founders, any advisors that you were having to the table, your employees to the table. They all got great work experience. So many of your employees went on to have great jobs at other places from what they learned under your tutelage at DevMountain. I've seen that, too. >> Yeah. >> So, let's go back now. Before we get into more of the DevMountain story, cuz it's amazing, as uh we're going to learn a little bit about Kaelen and Colt, okay? So, we like to do this with all our guests. So, we're going to start you off like um and I'm going to start with you, Kaelen. Tell us where you grew up and where you went to high school and how you got to have any entrepreneurial desires at all. >> Yeah. Uh I'll try to make this short. I grew up in a small town in Nevada, Elko, Nevada, which is just off I-80 on your way to Sacramento. >> mother has relatives in Elko. >> Yeah. So, super small town. Anytime I tell somebody I'm from Elko, they're kind of like, "Huh?" Uh but yeah, so small town um grew up had zero entrepreneurial, you know, uh tendencies or or aspirations or anything like that. My dad owned his own business, but it was like small mom-and-pop type business. Like still owns you know, still does the same thing to this day. He's almost 50 years into it. Um so if anything, I learned the dangers of of having a small business and the ups and downs that come with uh >> The impact on the family. >> Taxes and all that kind of thing. Um feast and famine and all that stuff. Uh in college um and this is this plays into the history of DevMountain a little bit, but in college I got really interested in web development. It was just after the dot-com boom, so there was a little bit of a lull in kind of you know, the presence of the web as a viable business. Yeah, early 2000s. >> But yeah, I just got really interested in the technology of how websites were built and and new things that were coming out and I just loved doing it. I I had a job at BYU as uh as like a web editor of of independent study courses. >> in Elko and you got accepted to Brigham Young University. >> And as a as a freshman you got a job or >> Yeah. Yeah, I think it was like sophomore year or something like that. But I was working as a web editor just proofreading online courses for independent study and I just got exposed like HTML and like how these courses were built. And at the same time I saw these programmers at at BYU Independent Study who were like rockstars. Like they would just like command the room and they were like you know, everybody was sort of like bow to whatever the programmer said because whatever they said went. Nobody else knew what was going on. >> how it was. >> for a long for a long time. For a long time. >> All the way through the teens, 2010s, it was like developers were just like, oh, bow to every bow to a developer. >> the the tail wagging the dog a lot of times. >> Exactly. Yeah, totally. So I but at the time there was not really a track at Brigham Young University especially to kind of learn web development as a discipline. I mean, you could go to the CS program, you could go to the information systems program, but there was not like a web development track. So I I of would just piece it together. I took a class here, a class there. I did a minor in computers in the humanities, and I just did stuff on my own. Freelance, learned how to do it. And and that was kind of a little bit of some of the genesis of DevMountain where I was like, "Why Why isn't there an easier way to learn what I want to learn by building stuff rather than having to take like an entire major or something like that?" Um so yeah, that's how I got into web development, got my first job out of college as a web developer. And then yeah, most of my career has been in >> go? >> Well, I worked for the church, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for a while as a multimedia developer. And then um and then ended up in a few startups. That's a whole 'nother story where I sort of fell into entrepreneurship because I took a contracting job not realizing it was a contracting job. I thought I was going to benefits and health insurance. My wife was pregnant with our second child. >> You thought it was >> 1099. I thought it was W-2. And I showed up the first day and went to the HR department and asked about my benefits and they're like, "What are you talking about? You don't have benefits. You're a 1099 contractor." And I was like, "You can't say that. My wife is pregnant with our second child. We have like very little income." But anyway, so it was like that I fell into entrepreneurship and it was like, "Well, if I'm going to be a contractor, I'm going to do other stuff. I'm going to make a little business out of it." So I made a small business and that's really when I fell into like love with entrepreneurship. >> So as a student at BYU, married with kids, you're getting into your web development company kind of thing. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Doing a master's program at the same time. So yeah, since then most of my career has been in a combination of engineering and some type of education. >> from there all the way up to the precipice of DevMountain. What did you do from junior, senior year in college when you were doing web development, sounds like on a contracted basis, what did you do all the way up to DevMountain? >> Yeah, so I had a small studio where I was doing mostly contract work uh for larger companies. Really tough business to to run. Uh dev shops are notoriously difficult. Um went from there, ended up joining a startup out of San Francisco with McKay Hagen uh and there's a funny story behind that, but I ended up in San Francisco for a couple years and felt like I was getting my PhD in startups, right? >> That was a legendary event because the way that he raised his money with a YouTube video >> Yeah. >> kind of was very notorious in the venture capital industry. Yeah. >> Yeah, I mean, we should just bring it up. It's we need an angel >> Yeah. >> with Undrip, right? It's still on YouTube. >> there. It's pretty catchy. >> And it doesn't have a lot of views, too. >> Yeah. >> listeners, go to YouTube, look up Undrip, the name of the company, and we need an angel. Is that what it was the name of the video? >> Yeah, that's it. >> It's a music video parody, and that got them scores of venture capital meetings. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, made waves. >> And Mick told me that it was the 41st one that invested. >> Wow. >> It took 41 meetings. >> What year was that, Caleb? >> That would have been 2011 or so, somewhere around there. >> So, that you went to Undrip >> Yeah. >> And so, you got a baptism by fire in Silicon Valley. >> Cuz I think that you were at Scan before you came >> No, that was after. That was after. So, I was in San Francisco for a couple years getting my PhD in startups learning the ins and outs of what venture startups looked like learning the ins and outs of what engineering at some level was. >> Yeah, I was a software engineer there. I was learning what like it looked like to build scale. We were a social media aggregation platform, so it was like we were taking all this data from Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and trying to make this single consolidated feed at the time. Social media aggregators were pretty big. >> I think we need to say what your education was cuz didn't you get something that'll play into DevMountain later? What did you get educated >> Yeah, my undergrad was Portuguese, totally unrelated. My master's degree was in instructional psychology. >> went at So, instructional psychology, which later played a good role in DevMountain. >> What was your intention of doing that? >> It was really a backup plan while I was running this small dev shop. It was like, well, if this doesn't work out, I need a degree to fall back on so I can go get a job somewhere. >> Yeah, but like what do you do with a master's degree in >> Well, nowadays Nowadays is different, but like back then you'd be like a learning designer somewhere. >> Ah, okay. >> Building training for some company or >> what made you feel like Was a certain event that made you inspired for that? Cuz obviously it was so key for us to tell like your credentials at DevMountain and everything. >> helped DevMountain. Huge. Yeah, I think I mean it was really like I said it was a Yeah, I think I mean it was really like I said it was a backup plan but it was kind of a byproduct of the fact that a lot of the contract we work we did at this company just happened to be like e-learning which was a big thing at the time. Building online learning platforms was a big thing for the church. It was a big thing for a lot of the our big clients. And so we were constantly building like online courses or, you know, online learning platforms. And so that became and and at the time Canvas and Instructure were just getting started. And so that was a big kind of boom in the e-learning industry, online learning. >> Yep. >> And so yeah, I just sort of gravitated towards that because it was where my work was. >> Yeah, yeah. We had a company e-learning brothers that did really well in the Utah market for that. Okay, so then so And Drip then you came back. What happened after >> So and funny story, yeah, we raised a million dollars in seed funding ran out of it in a year. Uh I I remember very vividly >> It seemed like you had so much more. >> it was very expensive. Million dollars seed was like, "Whoa." Uh and yeah, we I remember the day Talk about best and worst. Remember the day we raised that money, we went to the Apple store and bought $15,000 worth of equipment. You know, there's a lesson maybe there. Uh but we but we needed like iPads to test on cuz we had this mobile device and whatever. Anyway, so we left if we left Apple with literally a cart full of equipment for the company. It was like the greatest day ever. And then a year later we were shutting down the business actually, right? [laughter] Be asking ourselves to go back to being contractors and going without paychecks for a But we were just out of money. >> Came back to Utah. >> Yeah, we were out of money. My wife and I were like, "We can't afford to do this again." And so at the time I got connected to Kirk Weimert and Garrett Gee at Scan. Kirk and I became good friends and he recruited me to come work at Scan. And it was a good soft landing for me because again, we had sort of ran out of everything. >> By the way, when Tyler did what I just did to him today, it was Garrett. >> Yeah. I was going to say to all the viewers and listeners go watch the Garrett G episode if you want to learn that story. >> It was a great Caleb was a part of that team. >> Incredible incredible story. So you I didn't So you were that right down there in the building kitty-corner to the Startup Building in Provo, Utah? >> Yeah, so that was when that was when Scan that was when Scan was moving back to Provo. They They were in San Francisco for a while as well. >> got their investment out of Google Ventures. >> Exactly. So while they were moving back, they said, "Hey, why don't you move back to Utah with us and join the company?" And so I did. Um and and that was some connection with the Startup Building. >> it in Silicon Valley. He wanted to come back to Provo. >> Yeah, I think Kirk was the same way. It was not Yeah. >> And so and then so they just brought you back with them. >> Yep. >> Okay, got it. >> Back in the day when you actually really had to leave the state to go get VC funding. >> [laughter] >> That's literally what Scan did, what And Drip did. All of them had to go to San Francisco. >> And that day >> Well, back in the day when like moving to Utah was a cheaper option. I don't know if that's so much the case nowadays cuz prices have gone up so much. But yeah, back in the day it was like, "Oh, we can we can live on so much less in Utah. Much much more house for less money." >> like back in the day and like >> [laughter] >> these time frames we're talking about. We're >> You're old. >> Old. You're old now. >> It's a sad realization. >> All right. So okay, so then you did Scan. >> So yeah, what >> A great company in of itself. >> Yeah, at the same time I joined Scan when we're moving back, I was kind of having one of these like "What does my life mean?" moments. Like what do I really want to do with my career? I think I listened to some podcasts and stuff where I was just like, "Okay, what what is the thing I do that really matters?" And education, you know, coming out of a social media company that felt kind of I don't know, not super meaningful. I was like I was searching for that meaning in my work. And at the same time I saw Dev Bootcamp out of Chicago that had started and it was really successful and I thought Utah needs one of these things. And so >> And I had visited that one. It's called the Starter League. >> Right. Well, there was a few that came out of that Bootcamp. >> One was in 1871, this incredible co-working space. And I toured it and I go, "What the heck is this?" >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, I at the same time I was coming back to Utah, I thought Utah needs one of these and so, part-time while I was working at Scan, I started talking about the idea of teaching part-time classes nights and weekends with what we call DevMountain. >> we got to give a lot of credit to the Startup Building because they kind of put up this team together. Like literally, the Startup Building was like, "We want that in our building and who's going to do it?" And we're like, >> They gave me They gave me free rent to teach the classes and we basically just partnered up half and half on the business. >> the Taylor family, the father and son had sold buildings in California, very little small buildings, and bought an entire city block basically in Provo, Utah. And the funny thing, the building was called the Startup Building because of the startup candy company that was from the late 1800s. We all thought it's because they want to be cool. [laughter] No, it was the guy's last name, which is fascinating. And so, then they turned it into a true startup building and you guys became a nucleus of it, right? Yeah, that's cool. >> Yeah. >> So, so that's and they kind of started talking about this. You saw this. That's perfect pause moment. >> Yeah. >> Let's get Colt's history now. >> Yeah. >> Colt. >> Cuz I know I want to hear the whole story, Colt. >> Where'd you grow up, go to high school? And I know a little bit about how you got into entrepreneurship, but um tell the story. >> I know, I was like I was kind of expecting you to say it cuz I heard you [laughter] say it like in your Startup Mission Bootcamps and stuff like that on my side. So, um I grew up in Idaho, right? Uh in a small town. A lot of potato farmers and stuff like that. And so, I was always fascinated with things different, right? Like what's the most different thing from a white boy in Idaho? It's like China. So, what did I go? I declared my major before even going to BYU. I got accepted to BYU. Get me out of the state and I declared international relations, Chinese and American relations like before I even sit there and the cats just are like, "Are you sure you want to do this?" I was like, "It's different from what >> [laughter] >> I know. That's just what I'm doing. So, then I go down there and um did my freshman year and then went on a mission, came back, and uh I just I got a janitor job where I had to like wake up at like 4:00 and go clean up BYU building. And um I was always like listening to podcasts cuz that's kind of like when the downloadable podcast and then teams was kind of getting bigger, right? >> an iPod? >> I think it was an [laughter] iPod. >> found my old iPod, the ones where you had the white ones where you would scroll with the wheel and they're like, "What is this?" And I'm like, "Yeah, that's the iPhone before the iPhone, man." >> right? So, you listen to this stuff like Dave Ramsey and that and I'm like, "I got to make sure I'm financially set, you know, whatever." While I'm like minimum wage [laughter] janitor up on campus. And uh I think I got out of my janitor job and walked across campus and that's in Brigham Square, I see like a Lamborghini and like uh Ferrari and everything. And later on I found out this guy >> in front of the student main center called the Wilkinson Center in the middle of campus, you see a Ferrari and Lamborghini. Okay. >> Yeah. And you know, I'm jumping too far fast. When I'm alone in like the basement of the chemistry building all by myself, I have a lot of time to think. So, [laughter] I think I have a lot of great business ideas. And so, I come out and I see these Ferraris and I'm like, "Okay, that's cool." But then there was like a poster. It was like, "You want to be an entrepreneur? You got a business idea? Like take my course." And there was John Richesin right there. So, I I went past the cars, I wasn't of interest to me. I was like, "I have the best business idea. I need to like talk to you about it." Anyway, so you're like, "Send me an email." So, I like wrote out one of the business ideas. And um anyway, sent it to you. >> visit And you can visit me in my office, yeah. >> Yeah, and you basically told me back you're like, "That is one of the worst business [laughter] ideas." Right? And I've already like was telling so many like family and friends and like, "Yeah, [laughter] that's great." I had a lot of believers in my life, which is like a very good, but it's also like uh I had a lot of yes people in my life, too. So, right? >> I remember you you and I I said, "That's probably the worst business idea I've heard in my entire [laughter] time at BYU." So, who's telling you it's great? And you said, "My mom, my mission friend, my >> Yeah, yeah. [laughter] Roommates, people I meet, you know. So, then um >> And then but I told you here's why. And I gave you five reasons and then you said you're going to go check it out. >> Yeah. And I took another course um from a professor that uh really kind of hit a nerve with me. He's like, "Find the people out there who are like going to be good mentors and be around them and even be willing to work for them for free." So, the first step was like I was going to take your course cuz that's what you're advertising. It was a brand new course, right? Right? So, I went and and and took your course. And the reason why I valued like the five themes of why it was a bad business idea was like, "It's not just that you said this is the worst. Get out of my sight." It was like, "This is the worst and here's why." And it was very educational and I I could learn so much from you. So, anyway, that's when I took uh business management 170, intro to entrepreneurship. Took that course, learned so much, went up and said, "Hey, I'm willing to be your TA." And that's when I became your teacher assistant. >> Yeah, that was you cuz I needed to hang around you more. And I go, "Well, I need a TA." And >> [laughter] >> that's how it happened. >> Yeah. And think about like the introductions like uh you were talking about in the Startup Ignition uh Garret Gee episode, you know, where it was like Garret Gee is like, "I just became a yes man." That was like that was me, right? Cuz then Garret Gee was saying like, "Oh, I was able to go sit behind uh Utah Angels and just like listen to all these pitches of what not to do." >> same thing. Like he he said, "John, I was involved in the Utah Valley Entrepreneur Forum." And Garret said, "I'll just come a free intern or assistant helping that organization." And did the same thing. >> Yeah, I opened somewhere I sat into the Utah Angels and the Utah Angels too and and went into different events and that's like getting to about where we were, which was you were like, "Hey, you set me with an entrepreneurship internship one summer." And it was a horrible entre- It's not your fault, but I went there and it was all about entrepreneurship and it wasn't about entrepreneurship. So, the next summer I was like, "I need something more about entrepreneurship." You're like, "I'm doing BoomStartup and we don't have a position in place to pay but I can just cram and squeeze you in cuz the one paid position was you." >> It's [laughter] like the imagine it was a BoomStartup was the accelerator. >> So, is that like a classic fine? I'm going to do it anyway, right? >> Classic like Y Combinator Techstars accelerator in the startup building. And then Tyler was graduating and I said, "Tyler, I need somebody to be the program manager sitting on the floor all summer with those 10 companies." And Tyler got that one paid position. And then you came up to me and said, >> Yeah, I think I got to do something better than I did last summer. >> Anyway, that's when you and I became acquainted and we sat in the startup >> assistant >> like work under him. >> Yeah. >> And I said, "Cool, we don't have any budget for that." And you said, "I'll do it for free." >> Yeah, >> [laughter] >> and not only that, do you remember that? I recruited more. I was like, "I'm going to get a bunch of unpaid interns." And then I like sold it and then like you even just had one guest Phil Kirkner was one of those like unpaid internships that I like recruited into BoomStartup. And so like it was a nucleus of like young entrepreneurs. >> company might do this year? $30 million. >> Oh my gosh. >> [laughter] >> Right, it was great time and we sat at those tables in that co-working space in the startup building. So, that's like how I met you >> You said I was paid but I was basically unpaid. >> It was not [laughter] much. >> And you were also involved You were paid BoomStartup wages. >> And you were involved with two genomics. I was really jealous of that and stuff like that. >> But you know what's really interesting? Think about these decisions that you all make and do. And like Galen and what led to the moment and then your decision to just come up and talk to me on in the middle of campus, if that hadn't happened, if you hadn't said, "I'll be your TA." And if you hadn't said, "I want to I'll I'll work for free under Tyler." What would have happened, right? It's our life is a product of our succession of decisions we make and it's really interesting how it turns out. >> Yeah. Well, it shows you it shows you how important it is to optimize at that stage of life, especially for learning over any kind of income. Like And I've seen this happen a bunch of times where kids fresh out of college are trying to get the right job, the right salary package, the right comp, whatever. That matters way less than being in the right place to learn from people, from mentors, from companies, from experiences. Like even if even if it means working for next to nothing or even free, that knowledge, that experience is worth it's worth its weight in gold. >> Yeah. I try to drill that into students' heads today, but they're they're it they're still on a war-beaten path of I have to get a career, I have to get into a job, I have to get the highest pay I can. >> Yeah. And it's And it it which is funny because higher education's in crisis and has been for 20 years. Just there's less and less majors that have a good ROI. >> Yeah. >> Right? So, um Cole, thanks for sharing that. >> Yeah, you want me to get up just to the podium over here? >> So, you So, you're assistant program manager in the Boom Startup Accelerator for that summer. What then what happened? >> So, I basically like put my best effort. I was there always early in the morning. We stayed there for late, right? So, then one of the startup uh building uh partners came up to me and says, "I always see you're here and guess what? We're going to do these coding boot camps." >> This is Christian? >> This is Christian Faulkner. I owe so much to Christian Faulkner about this and he's like, "I want you to bring you on." I said, "Great." And then we came up in the room. I thought it was just me being bringing it And what's funny it like suddenly you showed up in the room, too, and you were like, [laughter] "He's bringing you on, too?" I was like, "Yeah." And then I was like, we were being independently recruited even though we were already working with each other. Like, that's great. And that was even before we met you. >> Yeah. Well, what was funny was yeah, at the same at the same time so I started doing DevMountain classes as just like a side project. I did not think it was going to be a full-time big company. >> you remember I had a full-time job. That was the whole story. Remember you were like, "You guys got you have to come full-time at this date or otherwise you're not going to get this." And I'm like, "Dude, guys, I just got this other job." I think we all thought it was going to be completely part-time. >> happened was I was doing it part-time and then it kind of got to this point where it was like it this is either going to die or live based on how much effort I can give it. And I And we saw those are first cohorts as first part-time cohorts, we saw a little taste of what it could do for people. >> we all talked and we're like, "Cailin should be the first one to go full-time. He should be the first one pulling pay. He should be the first one getting paid." >> how did you get from the Christian Faulkner you being recruited by Christian and on the so two things were going on. These two were being recruited by Christian Faulkner to do something like this. And then you're doing something already with night time part time work. >> Yeah. >> So, what happened was the partnership works anymore because unless you guys can do a lot more than what you're doing which is offering free space like marketing and helping me with you know, brand and all of this stuff then I don't think this makes sense. I think we need to rethink this. And that's when Christian had said Christian said, "What if I bring in a couple of guys that can put in the time and really can contribute to it." And that's when they introduced me to Tyler and and Cole. >> Yeah. Wow. >> That's where it felt like Cailin and Christian it's an arranged marriage. >> I think selfishly the Startup Building literally just wanted more foot traffic into the co-working space. >> Initially, yeah. Like literally they said, "We need content, curriculum, classes, whatever, just more ecosystem buzz, more events happening here so we can get more face time." >> the time there was a there was a dearth of coding talent in Utah. There startups could not compete with the big companies for talent. So, we needed to create more talent, but the funny thing is this is my lamenting of it all is when you guys started this I was going, I hope that you know, the startups will get great coding talent now, but most of the big companies loved what you were doing and sucked up your people, too, right? So, it was kind of interesting. There was just such an insatiable demand in Utah for coding talent at the time, right? >> Okay, so that's how you guys got together and then when you said that and your early effort you said you're going to go do it on your own and he introduced you these two and you three got together and decided to do it. >> Well, and it was a little bit dramatic at first, especially with like Tyler and stuff because we were again thrown a room together saying, "Okay, you're going to be partners." >> And initially we couldn't trust each other honestly. We didn't know each other. >> We didn't know each other. >> two were willing to go full-time. >> Yeah. >> But Tyler had just taken a full-time position at a >> another startup. >> genetic software company. >> at the startup it was literally the CEO, the CTO, and me. It was like I was the first hire and he had thrown so much at me within like the first two months of me being on the job and he's like, "You got to have to go handle these conversations. You have like you're literally doing all of our fundraising. You have to do this, this, this." And I'm like, and then you guys are like, "No, you guys you have to go full-time, Tyler." I'm like, "Oh, man, I'm going to leave this guy in a lurch to go full-time." >> Do you remember the time we were in the room and we we got kind of heated. You and I like voices were being raised and next door our cohort was waiting for me to go in and teach the class. >> Oh, yeah. >> And somebody came in and were like, "Uh guys, we can hear you like we can hear the shouting." It wasn't like we were screaming at each other, but like our voices were raised. It was getting kind of intense. I think Colt was you were there, too, probably. >> Oh, yeah, I was cuz like even afterwards and you went and taught. Me and Colt went and talked for like an hour and I'm like, "Colt, you got to talk to Kaelen for me, bro." >> Yeah, yeah. And then somehow we got to the conclusion, you and me together, which I laugh about now. You're like, "What should I do, man? I think I just blew this up." I'm like, "I don't know, just show him something that like you mean well." You're like, "Should I go give him some BYU ice cream after this, right?" Or something. >> [laughter] >> You went and delivered like at his office >> You literally dropped off ice cream at my doorstep. >> Oh, yeah. >> [laughter] >> Which I'm glad happened, you know. >> It was great. >> great. >> Who doesn't love ice cream? >> I mean >> It worked. >> But yeah, and then and I remember Tyler kind of didn't say I'm going all in DevMountain. >> Yeah, I was >> We came up with a timeline and I hit that timeline. >> leave the other guy in the lurch. >> Yeah, no. >> But at the same time, your decision was made. >> Yeah. Well, and what's I think what's incredible about that is again, there was kind of some initial call it like, you know, growing pains or whatever to get together, but after that, once we kind of settled into roles and responsibilities >> Those were my best days. >> We really gelled so well together. >> like isn't the most fun at the beginning? >> Oh, year one >> Well, what we're saying is some of the friction was in the beginning. But once we got past the friction, that's when the great times were >> Yeah. >> Yeah, so um let's Okay, so that's how you got together born. Now, let's talk about it. So, you three get DevMountain going and this is one of the first two or three in the country, dev boot camps like this. >> Yeah. >> And I'm just going to kind of give a little bit of spoiler. I personally, as a student of this industry, because I was mentoring you guys, I think you guys executed better than any other dev boot camp, and I've seen and studied the entire industry. You executed better than all of them. And that's why you had this incredible tremendous success. I mean, there were competitors to you in other parts of the country that received 30 million, 70 million in funding, and you guys bootstrapped this the entire way. >> Yeah. >> Okay, that's really important viewers and listeners to think what can be done. Money is not the answer in entrepreneurship. It's a tool, an important tool to be used at the right moment, but it is not the make or break it that everybody thinks. >> Like I know and I know Kaylin's example was of Undrip and not like we're calling out Mick cuz we love that whole team, we love the whole idea, but it's just like that's a smaller case of it, but there's startups that raised 10, 30, 50, 100. And you know, we have the case study of Quibi of 2 billion, right? >> Like Like General Assembly Assembly got 70 million, comes to Salt Lake City, lasts less than a year, and you guys wipe them off the face of the map. I'm just going to call it like it is. That's what happened. So, it was an incredible success >> that was Iron Yard. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, was it Iron Yard? >> There were There were a couple of them. There were >> 40 million or I mean Anyway, they're very fun to compare to you guys. So, and you guys uh built this company, expanded to multiple states, multiple locations, incredible run. But let's go back. You said the first year was so fun. Tell some stories on that first year cuz I I remember Here's what I remember. I think it was 2012. You were in business for like half of the year, the last half of 2012, and you got like 50,000 revenue. And then, in 2013, you come and tell me what your 2013 revenue was, and it was like 700,000 or something. You know, just a massive increase. And then from there, it just kept multiplying and multiplying. Tell what that first year was like and how that happened, and why was this such a hit? Why did it go so We can see the founder stuff, but macroeconomic or industry-wise, why did everything go so well for you? >> Yeah. >> I have my thoughts, but I don't know if you guys want to see what I thought. Start sharing. >> My thoughts are we we just hit the trend and wave and the like technical timing of the industry so well. Like it was perfect timing where it there was this huge movement of I have to be a developer, developer is the best career, it is the best opportunity for me. Tech and startup was just starting to blossom and really hit its stride in like 2010 to 2020. >> Yeah. >> And there was no AI, there was no cloud code, there was nothing out there. You literally had to learn these skills. >> And new languages? >> And like React and >> And Angular, all that? >> And the whole industry was booming and the CS programs around the country were semi-broken where it took 4 years to get through a degree and a ton of >> And teaching you antiquated stuff. Yeah. >> old languages and even just a lot of theory and not just hands-on keyboard. So, I think the model that we saw and replicated in Utah and kind of gave birth to alongside of some other players, I feel like was just perfect timing. >> reminded me of something too. For the previous 5 years, so even since the mid-2000s through the Great Recession and you guys did this coming out of the Great Recession, those of us older and in industry were lamenting that like in the Utah market, the universities like Brigham Young University, the University of Utah, Utah State, Utah Valley University, their CS departments were not producing workers for industry, not engineers that could actually go into a company and build product. >> Yeah. They were creating mostly >> PhDs in computer science. >> To be academics. >> Yeah. >> That's what they're and they were rewarded for that. >> Yes. >> We were all going, "How can we get these universities?" I spent a decade trying to make this happen. How can we get these universities to spit out actual code monkeys? I hate to call it that, but people that can actually write features and codes for software products. >> Yeah. >> And that's what you guys were producing, real coders. >> Yeah. While I while we were at DevMountain, I had a CS program a a a host of faculty take me out to lunch one day and I'm not going to say the university, but you know, it's not that many around here, so you can guess. They took me out to lunch and they basically said, "Is there any way you can teach most of our classes cuz we don't really want to teach. We don't really want to teach the skills. We just want to do research and we want to teach the higher-level stuff." And I just sat there thinking, "This is so broken." >> I know. >> You're like from the students' perspective, your entire job is to teach and yet that's the one thing they didn't want to do. >> Yeah. >> They want So, you know what? This is a funny thing is you just reminded me of the story and let's get into why it was so successful, but one time I invited Tyler to come speak to literally in Utah there's an association of CIOs. It's very high falutin. Okay, meaning the top CIOs of the top 30 companies in Utah. And I hosted a meeting of those people with what I was doing for BYU at the time. Held it at John Pestana's garage, really nice environment. And Tyler came in and part of the docket on the program was coding boot camp. There's this incredible coding boot camp at DevMountain. What does that have to do with CS departments and CIOs and all that? A lot of those CIOs frowned upon DevMountain thinking there's no way in 12 weeks you can make a coder, a programmer in 12 weeks. That's your program is 12 weeks, right? >> Yeah. >> This is what happened. Tyler comes in I can't remember if you came or not, but Tyler gave a presentation. >> think it was just me. >> Yeah, Tyler gave a presentation. Wowed the socks off the CIOs with the way you guys were doing. And I saw right then they started turning around on their thoughts. And not only this, a few of them go to Tyler and go I need my son to take this. Yeah. I need my daughter to take this. And one of them, I can remember distinctly, super influential who was really a naysayer against it, got his son to go to DevMountain. 12 weeks later he calls me and goes, "My son who I couldn't get on track for anything, just landed an $85,000 coding job 12 weeks >> [laughter] >> after starting at DevMountain. And And we have >> It's unbelievable. >> thousands of those stories. >> I know. I was going to say I love the whole like that's the one of the best things of reflecting it was like how laughed at we were in the beginning uh by uh former computer science students or companies. And then suddenly there were some of our best supporters. Like some of these companies >> it turns out a 12-week intensive short-term boot camp can actually produce real workers better than a four-year degree. >> Kaylin and Colt's um answer to that. Like, why do you think it went so well? >> Yeah, Colt, you go first. >> [clears throat] >> Yeah, I I mean, part of it, right, is Utah was trying to position itself into being like to grow from our roots of word, right? Or uh >> Novell and >> Novell and some of these things where we needed to go to the next evolution of tech, but everybody was going to San Francisco. And even like tech and some of our best computer science degree and it's like, we need these people. And so, yeah, I think it went well at the beginning because there was such a need for here as well as like I've taken computer science classes. Like, my first intro was like took me a semester to figure out how to make a word prompt to figure out how many slices of pizza I could, you know, order or whatever, you know. And it's like, this took me 12 weeks to get to this point. And so, it was great to see a fast on-ramp like onto the interstate, but then we had to really teach on them how to learn cuz we knew new language were going to come. So, I think that. Another thing is if we were to start >> changed your major while to computer science for like three weeks. You were so excited for like >> Like three semesters, right? Or something. >> Whatever you changed you came back to me. I can't remember now. You came back to me and said, "I'm not learning anything. This sucks." >> was too slow, [laughter] right? I was like, and it felt antiquated, right? We'd have Anyway, but the thing Another thing is you brought up earlier about like, "Oh, you know, there was these boot camps in San Francisco and Chicago and stuff like that where they couldn't bootstrap. They had to raise those millions of dollars." But, we were in like Provo, Utah, right? And so, it's like our costs were really low and we had people that needed to be hired. That's when we did location-wise. The next step where I think we did really well is like there was no way we would have been able to survive just on students from the Utah market. We took on Sometimes, this is what I call some headaches are worth taking on or else you're just going to be like any other business. So, we decided, "Hey, we're going to give housing to out of state students." And then we had to become property managers, which is a huge headache. I wouldn't recommend that to that yeah, [laughter] especially for me. >> So, your tuition took on that burden. >> So, viewers and listeners, the tuition became about $12,000. Yeah. >> But it still beat everybody. It included 3 months of dormitory. >> Yeah. And so, then we suddenly had some cohorts that were more than 50% from out of state. So, that kind of increased our addressable market that we got here in Utah. And then so, our reputation went from just Utah to out of there. And then there were some people who came and says, "I never heard of Provo ever. But you know what? That's okay cuz now I got free housing to the uh it was way cheaper to go to and I could just hone in and focus." And so, that kind of became better students cuz they were so focused. You know, they it wasn't like going to Miami or something and going late out night. What And uh and then so, then our word got out and people were like, "Oh, there's you know, in a mid-market Provo they're doing it." And that's when people start reaching out from other, you know, cool work out stuff. >> But they're also going to go elsewhere. It was great. >> maybe you you can touch on this, but to me it's outcomes. Real quick story. You guys invited me to show off show and tell night or whatever it was. You invite corporate people that wanted to hire coders, right? To see the work of the students like halfway through a cohort or something. And I remember going one night to one and I'm going to be honest with you, I'll just tell the story. I said, "I'm talking to the different people you had in your classes and they're showing off what they built and done." And there was this really attractive young woman and didn't fit the mold of a nerdy coder, okay? And I go up there and go I kind of in hindsight I shouldn't have said it this way. I said, "So, tell me what you're doing here?" Cuz I it was surprising. She goes, "Oh, I came here to learn how to code and you want to see my work?" And then I go, "Well, tell me your story a little bit." She goes, "Well, I got an economics degree from BYU. spent a year, couldn't get any job, and I was about to go home and live in my parents' basement in Michigan and take a uh um a job at a restaurant as a server. And I saw this billboard on I-15, "Want to be a coder?" >> [laughter] >> Okay. And so I said I said I scraped up the tuition money and said, "This will be my last try to stay here in this market and before tail between my legs back to Michigan." And so okay, so what happens is I got it, I'm here, and the cohort ends in a few weeks. I go, "So what's the status? How's this working out for you?" He goes, "Well, I've got three job offers." "You've got three job offers?" "Yeah, one for 65, one for 75, one for 85,000." "So which one are you going to take?" "Well, I'd like to take the 85, but I think I'm going to take the 75,000 one cuz that interests me more." And she was going to make about 18,000 as a server in Michigan living in her parents' basement. That's the That right there encapsulates what you guys did for us. Thousands of people. >> Which billboard do you think it was, Tyler? Do you think it was the one that said, "Your job equals poop?" >> [laughter] >> Come on, I'm proud of that one. >> It was great. >> I think that went down as one of the best like billboards in Utah history. Kind of set off the billboard chain in Utah. >> I may be biased, but I think Tyler did great marketing. >> Yeah, he did. >> So I mean, I was going to say that >> cheeky billboards like that in Utah at the time. So thank you for that. >> Well, it's all about starting the conversation and Tyler knew how to do I was going to say that was one of the things that I would attribute our success to is like >> To me? >> Yes, of course. Yeah. I mean, it's it's a whole host of things, but like but like Tyler I mean, it's it's a synergy, right? Like you have to Outcomes were critical. Like I remember one of the first cohort full first full-time cohort students coming to my house to give me the check for tuition. And basically looking me in the eyes and saying, "Is this really going to work?" And I'm sitting there going, I better believe >> [laughter] >> that this is going to work because I would feel terrible if I'm taking this guy's money, their hard-earned money, the last money they have before they go home with their tail between their legs. And if I can't deliver, if we can't deliver an education that provides them the outcomes they need, we're screwed. Like there's no way this is going to work. And so that had to be true. Like we had to focus on a on an educational model that really taught people how to learn, taught people how to adapt to new technologies, taught people how to contribute on day one. That had to be true. So that was I think one thing is like it does not work without that. All the marketing in the world does not save a program that doesn't deliver results, right? And yet that plus the fact that we had a really great brand and a really great I mean Provo was kind of having a moment at the time too. Like Mayor John Curtis who's now in the United States Senate like like Provo was becoming an interesting place. >> a great mayor for you guys, too. >> Yes, he was. I mean Provo was no longer the bedroom community it used to be. Now it was kind of becoming this startup hub. We had the startup building. Like all these things were coming into place. The FrontRunner station across the street. >> But you also expand to Salt Lake and then there's states and >> it was it was it was this flywheel effect where we had this really good branding that got people's attention. We talked about these outcomes and then we delivered. And guess what? Like I think until the day we stopped, you know, being there, word of mouth was what? 60%? >> Oh, more than. >> Of our referrals? >> I I I remember when we got acquired and maybe we can move into the transition of that acquisition. >> going to cover two things and that's one of them. So we got to keep going though. Say what you say when >> So I just remember when we got acquired and our acquiring company like I don't even know what kind of multiple they put on all of our budgets, right? We but infinitely the marketing budget got so >> went up 8x, I heard. >> Oh, it was huge. They were like I remember working with the CMO of the acquiring company and she's just like, "Yeah, here's what you're going to do in the next 12 months and here's what we expect out of you." And I'm like, "I don't even know how to spend this kind of money because everything we do here just comes from word of mouth. I can't do paid advertising. Like we don't do paid advertising. >> And even when you spent that budget, we we never saw that number go down. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It was still largely word of mouth referrals, which speaks to the the that I mean the story repeated itself thousands of times. Person doesn't have a lot of opportunity. Maybe they have a degree that didn't work for them. They need something. They go. They go to DevMountain. They They scrape and save and they pay off their loan or whatever. They get a job and they tell their brother-in-law about it or they tell their cousin about it or they tell the people >> 100% viewers and listeners, mark these words. You can do all this other stuff, but at the core, if you really want a great outcome, you have to have a great product. >> You have to have a quality product. And you guys had the best Dev Mountain >> said about outcomes is honestly what I would attribute I love what you say about marketing, but I would attribute like because that side of the house was much more your side of the house and like, you know, Kaylin and your curriculum designers and the teachers and instructors and mentors and everything over there where where mine was obviously marketing and sales or tuitions and applications. Doesn't matter what you said. How much marketing, how much dollars you throw at it, if you can't deliver on the promise that your product will actually do what you say it does, it doesn't even matter. So, I think that's >> What I remember was spring of 2015, you guys were riding so high. You then start expanding and you not only to Salt Lake City, you went to Texas and Dallas. I remember you going to Dallas. And you guys were expanding and you went on this expansion boom from spring of 2015 to like late summer of 2015. Then there's more to tell story. Do you want to tell a story before I get to the fall of 2015? Okay. So, then in the 2015, I remember and I'm not sure how you guys approached me or what happened and it maybe Kaylin was out of town when you two got together. You came to my house or whatever happened and you go >> I can >> You know what I mean by that? What happened in the fall of 2015? Cuz you guys were all-stars in the community. You had millions in revenue, but you came to my house and told me what? >> [laughter] >> Uh a lot of this lessons I reflect on a lot cuz Cassidy was there like on the financial part. So, let's give her like >> Your wife was your was your bookkeeper CFO talking >> Let's talk about that history really really fast. She was working at Fidelity. She had a candidate major. Me, Kaylin, and Tyler, we were like, "All right, we're going to go full-time, but we really don't want to like pay too much out there, so we're like, "Hey, your wife keeps bookkeeper have her do it, right?" So, we're like, "Hey, can you do this?" And she's like, "Okay, yeah, sure. I'll help you out." And we're like, "We need someone full-time. You need to quit Fidelity." So, she quit Fidelity. But then as we were going forward, we had advisors, you and like the other advisors like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. You have a partner's wife taking care of this?" A lot of red flags, which happens, right? So, we're like, "We need to get you another like CFO." We hired that young CFO, he didn't work out. We hired an old CFO, everything, right? And so then, right, okay. And Cass was fine cuz she was like, "I get that. I get the vision like it could cause like a rift between us." Well, then I remember uh it was in Oct- end of October. It was right be- like right before November. She was like, sitting down or maybe it was in November, but she went into the to one of our classrooms with the CFO that we had. And she's like, and we asked Cass cuz we're like, "We don't speak CFO speak like like have you review it." So, she sat down and reviewed it with this man. And then later on, she came out with like wide eyes. She was like, "You guys are going to run out of cash in December." We're like, "What?" And what we didn't realize is like our revenues were going higher. But this is all hindsight, right? But then because we accepted payments at certain you beginning of cohorts, we had a cash shortfall when our cash flow. So, our revenue was showing like as it was adjusted for GAAP standards across, we didn't realize December >> of it. >> to like February, we're in a drought where we have to have enough cash reserves. And we didn't keep that cash reserves. So, we were going to go under. >> Yep. >> Right. And so, that's like when we went to you like, >> in the And in like you guys are and I go, "What are you talking about? You guys are killing it." And then see here's what happened. I said, "Okay, let's slow down and let's build a corporate pro forma, truly figure this out." And really over the next few weeks, it took about two to three weeks, we built, all of us together, cuz you had a very special business model and we built a spreadsheet that was massive >> but very accurate and predictive on your cash flow. >> Which this is why we hired a CFO for. >> Yeah, but we had to do ourselves. >> we all got [laughter] I I did it and then I got another friend of mine to help and we got in and after I go, "Oh, these guys are going bankrupt. They're killing it. This is just the average normal cash flow shortage from hyper growth. You guys were growing too fast." And so I said, "Guys, you know what you do when you do this? You get a line of credit with your bank to smooth out your cash flows." And you guys >> That was horrible. >> That [laughter] didn't work out. >> Yeah, but during the >> It worked out in the very end, but yeah. >> During the three weeks, during the three weeks, I think you guys were in panic mode and all of you thought you were going out of business. >> Those were some of the darkest times I've ever had. I was >> you were 26, you were whatever. >> And you're >> [laughter] >> 33 or whatever. >> I think I remember your wife telling me she had to go in a closet and cry. Okay, so >> it was dark. I I remember feel I mean, especially the CEO, you feel like it's all your fault. Like how did I let us get into this position? I'm thinking about we're going to lay off employees or how we're going to pay our teachers and mentors >> Remember the Christmas party that was right before? >> It was awful. >> Or right >> This is Thanksgiving to Christmas. >> Yeah. >> But luckily, I hope I felt I said, "Guys, this is a normal problem fast growing companies have. We just got to address it." You went to your bank, we're not going to name the bank to [laughter] protect the innocent. >> Several banks. >> But you're putting millions of dollars through the bank account. >> Yeah. >> And they took like a A time to come back with an answer on a line of credit and you got it about a 200,000 line of credit to smooth out your cash flow. >> no. 15,000. >> No, no. >> No. >> You wanted 200,000. You wanted >> 475,000. >> And they came back after a long time and said, "We'll give you 15,000." >> Yeah. >> And >> It was insulting. >> You guys were furious. Cuz you're putting millions through the bank account and they give you a 15,000 line of credit. What the heck? They just didn't get your business. So, then I said, "Okay, let me help." And I got some local people and a Texas uh debt fund to give you guys, I think three to 400,000 just to pad it. >> Yeah. >> And that smoothed everything. I remember it smoothed everything out and then you guys your normal You guys were great. You guys smoothed out a temporary cash flow because you guys just grew too fast for six months is what happened. The only mistake you made was not accounting for cash during hyper growth. And that's a normal thing. >> And then six months later we sold. [laughter] >> Yeah. So, here's what happened. You And here's what happened. So, I actually recruited three or four of my friends to go in on that loan with the fund to get you what you needed cuz that fund wanted some local people to be in the debt, right? And then you guys did so well. I'm not kidding you. 45-60 days after a loan you guys were back flush with cash. >> And we paid it off. >> And you paid it off early. And I had my friends call me up and go, "John, what the heck?" >> Yeah, they were mad. >> THEY WANTED MORE INTEREST. >> [laughter] >> WE WE DID THIS SO we make some interest and all that. And these guys are prepaying it. We thought it'd be out for at least six to 12 months. And they paid it off in two and a half months. >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah, cash overflow. >> Hey, we we got it. >> So, anyway, that smoothed out. But here's what I also felt happen from that. This is why those kind of situations what Couple months later, I'll never forget you guys started getting acquisition offers. >> I remember the fishing email that we got from not the acquirer but some kind of firm that they had hired. >> The best of the scout. >> Yeah, I mean that that was actually kind of used to getting some of those. Like sometimes they're fishing expeditions. Yeah, whatever. So, we kind of treated it as just another one of those, but every time they would come back and seemed very serious. And so, it kind of became more and more of a conversation. And then, yeah, right around the time that early spring of of the next year or you know, late winter or whatever, um we we could tell it was an actual like legitimate They they finally told us who the company was. They finally told us that they had plenty of cash reserves. They were interested in making an acquisition. We met with the acquiring company. Well, in fact, you and I flew out to Minneapolis to meet with the acquiring company. >> I remember they asked for like like revenue documentation and all of our financials and you were just like, "Why would I give I remember you telling telling me, "Why would I ever give them all of our financial docs to a random person?" >> Basically, the bottom line is you got a serious interest offer and it was starting to happen. And after the whole thing was done and you did sell, you wrote an article, really good article, about what it's like to go through an M&A transaction and one being acquired. Like it was a second job and I've had so many people go read that article that you wrote. And that was that. And you said it was like a second job. >> And the funny thing is it was so fun to watch you guys because I'd been through all this in my career and all of it was just completely the way it does go, but you guys were just going through it the first time. It was fun to kind of relive it with all of you guys cuz you actually had a great acquirer that was really nice cuz it can go a lot worse. I remember us meeting with all the C-suite and it was going really well, but then there was a few minutes where the CEO of this big public company comes in and you go to the whiteboard and start teaching about your model and what you're doing and your mission and all that and his master's degree came into play and he's talking like an instructional designer. And and what happened in this meeting, this very meeting, this is no joke, I could tell in 2 seconds after he was at the whiteboard and that CEO's face and how he was soaking it in, I said, "This deal's going to >> Well, I remember that. That was that was a key moment because I remember sitting at the table around this big table and they're asking us very, you know, financial questions. He's asking us business questions and I just wasn't feeling like it was going super well. >> this 2 seconds, I remember we decided to send my dad because we're like, "We don't know what we're doing." >> We've never done this before. >> We've never done a deal. Like we need to look so young. And we're like, "Just send him." >> it helped to have the gray hair along. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> But but at the same time >> Now you've got gray hair. >> What ended up actually I think really sealing it from what I hear from the stories of that very first meeting was you. >> Yeah. I remember I remember that meeting. It was like Yeah, these questions are coming and I was kind of like it just felt like a business conversation and it felt very uncomfortable for me. I didn't really know the right answers to give and you're wondering what answers you're supposed to give. And finally, I I think I asked, I'm like, "Can I just show you kind of what our model looks like?" And they're like, "Sure." And so I went up to the whiteboard and it felt so much more natural playing the part of an instructor cuz that's what I've been doing for the last 3 years than playing the part of some sort of business, you know, at a table board meeting sort of thing. And once I got up there, I felt totally natural. It felt so much more comfortable and you could just tell the energy shifted. >> have to do a masterful job, Kaelen. >> it was really totally Yeah, it shifted at that point. >> Can we say one thing though? They were looking at other companies to acquire, right? And they had their mindset to acquire another company and they told us later on that like because of Kaelen and how well he sold himself, we're like, "All right." Right, like that's how >> key pivotal it was. >> Okay, I want to go through best and worst moment and we'll end on this. Best and worst moment of the M&A transaction. You guys ultimately sold, you all became wealthy, and you guys it was a the dream of dreams for entrepreneurs, right? And okay, best and worst moments of the M&A process cuz that was spring of 2016. That kind of stick and you closed sometime a few months later. So, best and worst moments of the M&A process. >> Well, it's it's funny cuz the best and worst moment are probably the same for me. >> Okay. >> Which was the day we sold. I mean, like you said, the the the process of selling your company is grueling. It it is a grueling process and that's when you have a team of people like in-house counsel or, you know, a team of financial people. We didn't have any of that. We were a team of what, 30, 40 people? Not in counting our Not counting our mentors or whatever, but we were a small, scrappy group trying to provide all this documentation. I mean, this acquiring company had entire teams of people that were focused on this one thing, and they had outside counsel. So, it was like my day job was kind of trying to pretend like I was running the company, and then my night job when I got home was chasing after contracts and providing, you know, predictions and and spreadsheets and documentation and all the crazy amounts of stuff they ask for in the due diligence process. And it was so stressful because I kept thinking we were you know, we were running hot. We had been 3 years in this just crazy I mean, you talk about startup years like they're dog years, right? Like 3 years feels like 20 because you're just like every day it's crazy. And I just kept thinking my worst nightmare was going to be we were going to wake up the day of the transaction it was going to fall through. The CEO of the other company was just going to decide for whatever reason they didn't want to do the deal cuz they can do that. >> you don't feel that way. >> At any point they can just pull the plug, and you've spent all of this time, money, emotional energy. >> Oh, it's it's I mean >> Most of the time it's not real during that time. >> I was going to say, I don't know I'm sure we could have survived. I don't know that I could have survived emotionally if it wouldn't have gone through. >> Well, what's so funny is after we got a relationship with the acquiring company with Capella and Strayer and everybody that was over there, they started opening up more about the process. Like what you said, how Oh, how Calen sealed the deal or a lot of conversations for me were all these little pivotal decisions. >> Yeah. >> Like these small little like small decisions throughout the process that I didn't know were detrimental or the reason why we were even acquired Yeah. Cuz I was just so innocent and novice at this whole process. I didn't know that these little things could have had these huge effects. >> And in that stressful and just like grueling process, the day we sold, the day we closed, my wife and I said, "Let's go to our favorite place to get dinner," which was an Italian restaurant or whatever. >> What one? >> Carrabba's. >> When you say Oh, I love corruption. >> It's great. >> when you say close, let's get the our viewers and listeners understand. So, you're saying when you refreshed your screen and saw the money hit your bank account. >> Yeah. >> Okay. When you did that. >> funny funny call out here. Uh the next day, that same bank who tried to give us the line of credit of $15,000 called me and said, "Hey, we saw that you got a big bunch of money. Would you like to talk to our private bankers?" And I said, "No, I do not want to talk to you right now because you guys were not there for us when we needed you." >> Bankers, this is a huge lesson. You got to treat the startups and emerging companies well if you want the later >> Yeah. >> big deals, right? >> Absolutely. >> So, at we're at this restaurant, our favorite place, and I'm I almost have a panic attack in the restaurant, which seems crazy because we had just sold the money, but it was like all of this stress, all of this worry, it was like releasing in my body. I was just like freaking out. I didn't know what to do. And I was just like sitting in the restaurant. I'm like, I feel like I'm going to have a panic attack. And I had to walk I had to go out of the restaurant and walk laps around the restaurant just breathing until I felt like I calmed down. >> huge life moment. >> It was it was massive, and it was just this all of this stress built up over months and months and years, really, that was finally just like my body was like, "Okay, it's okay to process this or let it go now." It was It was a great but best and worst, yeah. >> Cole, your best and worst. >> I'll be >> Uh I know like for one of the worst, I I know you want me to bring this up, but we kind of messed up on like you were saying so many small things. We did had so many things right, but one of our things we got wrong on when we were doing our founding documents as a company that would have cost us so much money. And luckily, we because of Calen's relationship with Scan and Garrity, we used his Larry Truth, shout out to him. >> Larry Truth same same lawyers that Scan used, yeah. >> So, he's the one who came in, and he's been doing everything >> You didn't say what the problem was. Why did you need a lawyer in the >> Can we say >> It was like the 11th hour of the deal. You needed to hire an expensive lawyer for why? >> We didn't fill out our 83B. >> [laughter] >> It's like it's cuz like it was just part of the stack of >> Hey lawyers and listeners, 83B is if you do a startup and [laughter] you have founder vesting, which you should always have, you have to fill out this one-page form. It's a stupid perfunctory process. And you have 30 days to do it after you found your company and do that. All three of these guys did not do it. >> Yeah. >> That was discovered in the 11th hour of their M&A deal. And to get out of that >> catastrophic mess, and it was a catastrophic mess. They had to hire a very expensive attorney. >> And he >> Who fixed it. >> Yeah, all legal. >> And I don't even know what happened. I don't know how it got fixed, [laughter] but it did. >> The structure of the deal >> The structure of the deal, I can't even speak to it cuz it was so complicated from a legal perspective, but they called it like a reverse triangular merger or something like that. >> We just know it worked and we >> We don't need the IRS knocking [laughter] on our doors. >> That's why I was like, okay. Anyway, so that was probably one of the worst things, but >> the best though? What's the best though? >> The thing was like I do remember because when that money hit me and Cassie just got such a relief of like relief that we went to the University Park Place Mall, put some dollars into the automatic massagers. We just sat [laughter] there and >> I didn't know we did that. >> We we just finally did it. And we were in our 20s. >> That's awesome. I didn't know that. >> We just became, you know, we did this. So that was that was like the single moment of me sitting in University Mall in the massagers that I was just like it all hit me. >> And the IRS still got our money, by the way. >> Yeah. >> They got nice money. >> How about yours? >> Best and worst thing about the acquisition. The best thing was probably finally being able to tell people about the deal. If you remember, it was a long process and that we had to keep things so quiet from like key employees, from family, from all of our business relationships. And then the second we could find cuz it was a public company, they wanted to keep everything quiet so it didn't affect the stock price and so I I think just the relief of telling people was really really probably the best moment for me. Like obviously the dollars and the money was life-changing, but at the same time I think just talking about the deal cuz we had been hush about it for so many months. It was really really a strain on everything. >> What What was the worst thing for you? The rule 83b or something else? >> Worst thing Like obviously all the due diligence and dividing and conquering and getting all that compiling all the documentation and doing all that work was bad, but at the same time it's like I I think I always saw the light at the end of the tunnel. I think we had to constantly remind ourselves like guys like let's let's let's put some time and effort into this, but also like let's keep the business running. So maybe balancing those two things was the worst thing. >> It was really hard. >> And I remember Tyler coming up to me shortly after the sale going Hey Dad, it's just not the same when you don't own it. >> Yeah. >> I don't know. Admittedly, Cam, we played a lot of golf after that. >> [laughter] >> Well, I mean a lot of the pressure was off. You had a marketing budget. We had We had funding. We had like people to help us with finances. I mean it was a public company. >> Yeah, it was like >> of learning. >> Yeah, it was a huge It was a huge new chapter where we just didn't have a lot of the same stress and risk that we had before. >> it as well? >> I think it was fun. It was fun for a little while. Like yeah, it was a lot less stressful. I think we could get back to focusing on some of the stuff that was fun about it. But yeah, ultimately >> But probably not as fun as your first year. >> No. No, I mean ultimately >> It was different, right? >> After a while, you know, you you especially saw this, but after a while it's kind of like oh yeah, you can't say that in marketing. You start getting told what you can and can't do. Yeah. And that just slowly but surely erodes all of the fun out of it. >> in-house legal team did not like me >> [laughter] >> at all. >> So So the the poop billboards did not go well with them. >> Well, I know everything got scrutinized. Everything from >> [clears throat] >> the way I said something to a word I had in a pamphlet to what I said on the marketing website to what the application form said to >> Things we'd used for years. >> what a Facebook ad said. Like I had to get every piece of content approved, which we never did before. >> That was like our job. It was to talk to lawyers >> This has been great. I want to thank you two for helping pull this off, Tyler. >> believe it. This is so funny. >> It was fantastic. Uh we don't have time to get into much what you've done. >> We'll have to have them both back and tell them about what they're currently working on. >> in and tell us what you're working on sometime, but today was just a DevMountain reunion. >> Well, 10:00 a.m. >> And and just at the 10-year mark >> so old news now. >> But I I want to I want to tip my hat to all three of you as, you know, father, mentor. I feel kind of a father relationship with all three of you, and I just feel that you guys were excellent executors. I When all is said and done, you built and put out in the market a great product. >> so funny that could not exist today? The timing, no timing. >> I teach in the boot camp, right? You got to catch the wave at the right moment. And you guys caught the wave right, but you also have to ride the wave in, and you rode it with great execution. I remember telling people, "You don't understand what they've got going there. They're down here in Provo, Utah running several concurrent classes with 30 to 35 people in it, all paying $12,000 tuitions." That was huge, right? And you got If you count the money, I remember Tyler one time coming to me and saying, "Dad, I can't believe the money I'm seeing go through this account." >> No, our Slack bot. [laughter] Remember that guy? >> And so And that's just And that all goes because and I want the viewers and listeners to walk away from here and go, "Look at these founders. Look how they got along. They pulled in the same direction. They had each other's back, and they put a great product into the market, and they executed really well and did what was needed and necessary, and they bootstrapped it. That's amazing." So >> Yeah. >> Kudos to you guys, right? >> Let's give a hand to everybody on our team, too. >> Yeah. >> Your team was really strong, so I can't say enough about all of your I still know them and also have relationship there, so it's awesome. Okay, that is it. We're going to say goodbye for today. Thank you for coming and we are out. >> [music]